DDR Feild Equipment / Kit Observations

[John F.]

I was viewing the DDR reenactor thread, and I was looking at the East German Kit and made some general observations that I thought was a bit odd. For example the canteen that was worn on the hip seems that it would have been a bit difficult to get quick access to with the cup attachment, strap and buckle style fastener, especially if you were on a foot march. The second item was the field pack (Sturmgepäck). Having served in the US Army and humping a US ruck-sack it appears that the East German pack was somewhat small. I remember being able to packing an extra uniform, boots, 3 days change of underwear, saving kit, a towel , ammo for the crew served weapon a couple of 60mm mortar rounds, a days worth of rations ( 3xMREs) and still having room for a few comfort items and a Playboy magazine or two . However, looking at that East German pack I doubt that it could accommodate and quarter of the stuff we in the US Army carried. Was this the only size the NVA had or were there larger packs? I would be interested to hear from some of the former NVA soldiers who actually used this equipment. I've add a copy of pics that I lifted of of eBay.

Best,
John

[Viktor]

Genosse,
The NVA was not the US Army, so they did things differently, their Scale of Issue reflected they Fighting Methods which were Soviet All Arms Battle Doctrine, they were to fight Mechanised and be used up quickly as per All Arms Tactics do.. A Division lasts three Days before removed and reformed or is held in place till it is gone.. The NVA was not to fight as an Army, just as parts of Soviet Armies within their Fronts.

You were issued Two Assault Packs, one was your living gear in your Vehicle with your Zeltbahn , the other was over in Company Transport and was your Clothing and Comfort support gear with your Blanket.

You were likely ordered when to Drink as per the Soviet system of Commands from an Officer, the NVA was still a Prussian Army in regards to its Control of Men.

Shock of advance was the key, the Tactics when tested do work but at a cost in Men and Material.... This method accepts the Butchers Bill for Success.

All good points though Comrade, they just did it differently, their Gear can be seen poor in some ways but if you use it as they meant it to be used, it performs to the Norms they demanded of it...

[John F.]

Hi Viktor,

Thanks for the detail answered. Although fimiliar with Soviet Doctrine and Tatctic about how they fought but was not aware of techniques and procedure for how they refit and resupplied the individual solidier, or how they lived in the field.

Best,
John

[Kozlov]

Not that unusual.

Take a look at the British 37 pattern equipment - same idea as here, two packs, one to live from and one to fight with. Neither particularly big.

Armies historically have fought with much less...

I've recently seen similar questions as to how anyone could "survive" playing airsoft with just one small canteen of water. You must of course need a 10 litre camel back for 8 hours worth of running around pinging plastic balls off of each other.

Clearly by the time WW2 was over, everyone was really, really thirsty and the dehydration had killed 99% of the soldiers...

[RedBaran11]

I recieved questions similar to this at my displays. Genosse Viktor basicly hit it dead on- they were mechanized and fought from the BMP.
Genosse Viktor also explained why there arn't any grenade pouches seen on soldiers- the grenades were kept inside the vehical. Again, goes back to difference in views between the Soviets and Americans and how to conduct a war.
Note also that the Soviets developed the first purpose-built IFV, the BMP. The US did not come out with an equivelent, the Bradley, until over a decade after the BMP.

[John F.]

I recieved questions similar to this at my displays. Genosse Viktor basicly hit it dead on- they were mechanized and fought from the BMP.

That's true, I was looking at it from a light infantry (10th Mtn Div) perspective.

[Guardian 5]

John F. - it seems as though the NVA would occasionally relent and let infantrymen wear the canteen where they could get at it more easily, as evidenced by this picture of a G.I.B. (guy in back) shown in the back of a BTR-152.

Upon reflection, I think it was the U.S. experience in Vietnam as well as our post-Vietnam deployments to Beirut, Grenada, Panama, the Gulf and other hot places, that kept the U.S. deeply in touch with their "inner light fighter" and that creature's fixation on easy access to water and configuring LBE and ruck for sustenance loads.

On those few occasions when I actually donned the NVA fighting rig of the 1980s I found it quite ungainly and unbalanced. The ammo pouch with three or four (empty!) mags was an ungodly nightmare that constantly freed itself of the y-strap harness and proceeded to pull down my pants.

On the other side of the IGB, it looks as though mech infantry also heavily influenced the fighting rig, as Bundeswehr infantry mostly una$$ed the tracks wearing just belt, y strap, ammo pouches and pro-mask. Everything else, to include the canteen, stayed on the track.

Post-war German Infantry lived in Mecca (as in "mech-ah"). They lived to clear defiles for the tracks. "Drop ramp, action left, clear the OBJ, re-mount and on to the next objective."

I've got to go now, as Genosse Viktor has undoubtedly unleashed the duty car for my denigration of the fine NVA load bearing system....

Take care - TJ

[Viktor]

John F. - it seems as though the NVA would occasionally relent and let infantrymen wear the canteen where they could get at it more easily, as evidenced by this picture of a G.I.B. (guy in back) shown in the back of a BTR-152.

Upon reflection, I think it was the U.S. experience in Vietnam as well as our post-Vietnam deployments to Beirut, Grenada, Panama, the Gulf and other hot places, that kept the U.S. deeply in touch with their "inner light fighter" and that creature's fixation on easy access to water and configuring LBE and ruck for sustenance loads.

On those few occasions when I actually donned the NVA fighting rig of the 1980s I found it quite ungainly and unbalanced. The ammo pouch with three or four (empty!) mags was an ungodly nightmare that constantly freed itself of the y-strap harness and proceeded to pull down my pants.

On the other side of the IGB, it looks as though mech infantry also heavily influenced the fighting rig, as Bundeswehr infantry mostly una$$ed the tracks wearing just belt, y strap, ammo pouches and pro-mask. Everything else, to include the canteen, stayed on the track.

Post-war German Infantry lived in Mecca (as in "mech-ah"). They lived to clear defiles for the tracks. "Drop ramp, action left, clear the OBJ, re-mount and on to the next objective."

I've got to go now, as Genosse Viktor has undoubtedly unleashed the duty car for my denigration of the fine NVA load bearing system....

Take care - TJ

Genosse,
If you load the gear and get used to it ... ...it does work, the amount of Ammunition carried does cause me to raise an Eye Brow, but they knew what they were doing.. I guess when they designed the Scales of Norms..
The Pouches are balanced by E Tool , Water Bottle and Bayonet, the Belt is worn tight at the waist, then the Yoke supports that, it is not just hung by the Yoke and done up like the Western idea.... use the gear like they did and it is serviceable, use it like a Westerner and it will start to fail..

Your Image... I know that one.... Is early, the FDA worn of that time had additional foliage loops on the upper chest, this Genosse has attached his Water Bottle to it while Bussed so he is not sitting on it, I do have another Earlier Image of Genossen in Kampfanzug serving an lMG (of the DP Family of Weapon Systems), one of them had done the same.. .it did happen but it is not a Norm held in the Historical Documents greatly.



...of more importance, is one of this Genossen out of your Image looks to have looped his Weapon system Sling over his Fore Sight.. a very modern Russian Army and "Spondnik" Air Softer thing to do...

Duty Car at Four Hours Readiness....

[Kozlov]

Is there a better system than that the NVA used from the late 1950's (??)...?

Of course there is! And we know what it is... its the "UTV" kit that they almost introduced when the wheels fell off.

We look at this stuff comparing it to gear that came out much later.

Maybe in the same time period there were nation's armies who had already evolved to the next stage of thinking, but remember armies cannot change immediately a new idea comes out, it costs money, and the DDR had less and less of that as time went on.

You also have to think about a Marxist view of things, which is function not form. You would have to demonstrate a serious improvement in a piece of equipment before someone decided it would be worth replacing. How much better could a motorised infantryman perform his 200m dash to assault an enemy position with different gear? Maybe silk underwear would be nicer to wear, but does he kill Capitalists aggressors any better because of it?

[grossmacht]

I look back even further than the BMP for my precursor to the Bradley...
namely, the Schützenpanzerwagen Sd.Kfz. 251. It and it's fellow wehrmacht cousins were designed specifically for this purpose...
-d

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%...en_Sd.Kfz._251

I recieved questions similar to this at my displays. Genosse Viktor basicly hit it dead on- they were mechanized and fought from the BMP.
Genosse Viktor also explained why there arn't any grenade pouches seen on soldiers- the grenades were kept inside the vehical. Again, goes back to difference in views between the Soviets and Americans and how to conduct a war.
Note also that the Soviets developed the first purpose-built IFV, the BMP. The US did not come out with an equivelent, the Bradley, until over a decade after the BMP.

[Guardian 5]

Genosse,
If you load the gear and get used to it ... ...it does work, the amount of Ammunition carried does cause me to raise an Eye Brow, but they knew what they were doing.. I guess when they designed the Scales of Norms..
The Pouches are balanced by E Tool , Water Bottle and Bayonet, the Belt is worn tight at the waist, then the Yoke supports that, it is not just hung by the Yoke and done up like the Western idea.... use the gear like they did and it is serviceable, use it like a Westerner and it will start to fail..

Your Image... I know that one.... Is early, the FDA worn of that time had additional foliage loops on the upper chest, this Genosse has attached his Water Bottle to it while Bussed so he is not sitting on it, I do have another Earlier Image of Genossen in Kampfanzug serving an lMG (of the DP Family of Weapon Systems), one of them had done the same.. .it did happen but it is not a Norm held in the Historical Documents greatly.



...of more importance, is one of this Genossen out of your Image looks to have looped his Weapon system Sling over his Fore Sight.. a very modern Russian Army and "Spondnik" Air Softer thing to do...

Duty Car at Four Hours Readiness....

Genosse Viktor - I plead guilty to cultural myopia, a common malady affecting Americans, and fully realize that this admission will be submitted as exhibit # 1 in my show trial.

I am grateful to Genosse Kozlov for pointing out that even the NVA recognized the need to better equip their soldiers and were in the process of fielding the new h-harness ensemble just prior to the fall of the wall.

I concede Genosse Grossmacht's point about the Sd. Kfz. 251 being the original Infantry Fighting Vehicle, but I firmly believe it was the fielding of the West German Marder and not the BMP or BTR that nudged the Brits to produce the Warrior and the U.S. to field the Bradley.

To get back on topic, somewhere in the annals of the now defunct Society of East German Military Collectors, there was an in depth analysis done of the U.S. and NVA load bearing rigs. I'll see if I can find it and scan it in here.

Take care - TJ

[Kozlov]

Actually, the SdKfz 251 was an example of the "battle taxi" rather than the Infantry Fighting Vehicle. The "battle taxi" was actually trialled in WW1 by the British (and probably others) in infantry carrying versions of the tank...

The BMP is not of this purpose, it is different and very radical. Caught NATO very much out of step!

[Klaus1989]

The only thing I found problematic about NVA fieldgear was the design of canteen. I have to wonder why they not use clip like WWII, West German and even early East German (1950s) and clip it to d-ring since they not have breadbags anymore. It is much easier to access.

Wearing the bayonet in front is somewhat unusual to me (I know this is the Soviet way) but one gets somewhat used to it.

regards
Klaus

[Viktor]

Genosse, The Clip is useful to access the Field flask but it hangs and bounces badly, likely that is why they changed..

You only Drink when you have time to remove it as well... a bit of German Logic there I guess.