Oberstleutnant Panzer Uniform

[Asbjoern]

O.k., everything shown here is from one family ...

What do we know for sure: there is one Mr. Schmahl being commander of a Panzerregiment in the rank of an Oberst in WW II . Depending on other source he also served in WW I and held the DKiG. Depending on this career he must be born before 1900.

Then there is a Mr Schmahl serving in the Bundeswehr, holding the rank of a Major in 1962 and OTL later, maybe 1971. Depending on the picture the guy is in his mid 40ies in the early 1960ies when the shown picture is taken.

What about the possibility that the stuff belongs to two Mr Schmahl from the same family ? Maybe father and son ? It would not be so uncommon that two generations served at the same time ...

Regards,


Jens

[HouweTrouwe]

Steve, I have a little difficult time myself here investigation the situation on the uniform and the rank problem. Aswell as the DKiG!

Speedy, the links never provided information to him being an officer in WWI. The only source stating Schmahl deserved the DKiG currently is WW2awards, which used "Die Ordensträger der Deutschen Wehrmacht", which is sadly in the researching world not quite used as a source. It has many good information but also many wrong information which makes the crediable of this source difficult.

Impossible the documents are directly to Oberst Schmahl, some are feldpost written by a soldier of the 9. Panzerdivision (and possible good friend) for the New Year etc. and self-made paperdocuments made personally for Schmahl for some happenings.

I'm trying to recieve personal details from the family. I also now known there are some more awards from him (as his PKA 25).

[speedytop]

HouweTrouwe,

... the links never provided information to him being an officer in WWI

Please see my link in Post 13, page 68:

"Oberst Schmahl und ich verließen unsere Filmtruppe und versuchten, uns auf dem schnellsten Weg nach Berlin durchzuschlagen. Der Oberst, ein Offizier aus dem Ersten Weltkrieg, war ein schlauer Fuchs."

"The only source stating Schmahl deserved the DKiG currently is WW2awards, which used "Die Ordensträger der Deutschen Wehrmacht", which is sadly in the researching world not quite used as a source. It has many good information but also many wrong information which makes the crediable of this source difficult.

Please use the best source for it, "Klaus Patzwall/Veit Scherzer, Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941 - 1945, Geschichte und Inhaber, Band II"

As in other sources, you can find there Oberst Ludwig Schmahl, Kommandeur Panzerregiment 33 with the "Deutsches Kreuz in Gold".

Please try it with facts, and not with suppositions and assumptions.

Uwe

[HouweTrouwe]

HouweTrouwe,



Please see my link in Post 13, page 68:

"Oberst Schmahl und ich verließen unsere Filmtruppe und versuchten, uns auf dem schnellsten Weg nach Berlin durchzuschlagen. Der Oberst, ein Offizier aus dem Ersten Weltkrieg, war ein schlauer Fuchs."



Please use the best source for it, "Klaus Patzwall/Veit Scherzer, Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941 - 1945, Geschichte und Inhaber, Band II"

As in other sources, you can find there Oberst Ludwig Schmahl, Kommandeur Panzerregiment 33 with the "Deutsches Kreuz in Gold".

Please try it with facts, and not with suppositions and assumptions.

Uwe

I'm doing it with facts and therefor I ask for clear sources. Not all sources and references are reliable. Uwe, I replied to your link from ww2awards.com. I sadly don't have the books you mention and therefor I cannot check it. Is it mentioned which source Veit Scherzer used? Are there other awards mentioned? Prename?

Does anyone have the book: Divisionsgeschichte von Gustav W. Schrodek (Bildbuch 11. Panzer-Division)? There would be a photograph of "Major Schmahl".

P.S.
I really like this thread. A nice discussion to uncover the real history to it. I also hope the same as you that everything gets cleared out.

[Collectinsteve]

It is a very interesting discussion indeed! Especially for me because I have "no horse in the race", as the saying goes. Meaning, whatever the answer is I'll still be happy with the conclusion. And no matter what... this is a fantastic collection you are getting ahold of. So in either case you win as well

As I see it there are two mysteries to clear up:

1. Progression of rank

2. Age of Oberst Schmahl

Either one of these will likely give us a definitive answer.

Having said that, based on the evidence we have now... I think the age issue is the one that can't be argued with. There appears to be no way for a soldier to have been in both WWI, WWII, and 10+ years in the BW. The math simply doesn't allow for this possibility because of mandatory retirement age.

Steve

[HouweTrouwe]

I just bought ca. 235 photographs [don't know exactly] over from him from during the war (seems most from Panzer-Regiment 2) and from after the war. I also bought his Eisernes Kreuz 1. & 2. Klasse (2. without ribbon and 1. Cased), Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42 (without ribbon), Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber and a minitiatur Panzerkampfabzeichen in Silber. I didn't had a good review on all the photographs and some personal paperwork (he recieved ca. 110 photographs from after the war from Schmahl and his family and I saw some letters to I think on the photograph - as it was quick overall view. He told me I could have it for free, I didn't have to pay anything! A very nice and friendly man) so I don't know exactly what I will found out. He will try to find out some more information for me. He also told me that the family had a uniform (possible from WWII), Panzerkampfabzeichen 25 and a Wolchowstock (to be seen on a photo). If not some more, he keeps me updated as he still have contact with the family.

[harmel]

Obstlt uniform

Hi Gents,there is a very small group pic of Schmahl,but not facing
camera in the book by Schrodek.
Harmel
need more info from the book send pm

[HouweTrouwe]

I recieved the photo by mail and it is almost impossible to get a clear view. BUT due the photogroup we can conclude that the uniform didn't belong to Schmahl himself although many documents referring to him came with it. How some of the personal paper ended up there is unknown especially due the timeframe. It could be that the soldier knew Schmahl. As the soldier was an officer himself. Still trying to get a better view but I will not waste to many time anymore and maybe eventually sell it as currently money and interest only allows to buy or trade material to the units mentioned in my signature. Thanks for all the replies made! It eventually made this thread a very interesting one.