Jacket identification request!

[Asbjoern]

Steve, don`t panic ... beside spare musician boards without holes there should be suitable Verbandsabzeichen in stock .... as Gordon states a divisional patch for the pioneer and a BMVg or corps patch for the musikman ...

Regards,

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

While I suggested a Panzer Division unit for the engineer tunic, if Steve picked Panzer Brigade 21, as I suggested, I think that the Panzer Brigades arm badge would be more appropriate for Armoured Engineering Company 200.

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Gordon - Were you referring to 1. Panzergrenadier Division (top row, second from the left)?

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Speaking of tuba players on a hot summer day......

I think these guys are wearing the Affenjacke though.

All the best - TJ

[Gordon Craig]

The badge I posted above is not for the division. The Armoured Engineer unit I mentioned is actually part of Panzerbrigade 21 and it is their shield that I posted above. Not the arm shield of the parent division. Panzer Brigade 21 is a component brigade of Panzer Division #1

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

Thanks for the recommendation. I think I have a couple of those in hand already.

TJ,

Nice pic! Yeah, looks like the other guys, at least, are Aped up. Note the double breasted buttons on the third guy from the left. The fourth guy form the left is wearing the first standard issue non-US field belt.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve, TJ,

I was sure that I had read somewhere thst the Panzer Brigades had their own arm badges but I think I was probably in error here. Memory fails as I get older! The divisional arm badge is probably all that was worn. Good luck in finishing the uniform.

Regards,

Gordon

[Asbjoern]

Gordon, you are 100% correct ! While the divison has the emblem with the black / white striped border the soldiers serving in units of the assigned brigades have the same emblem surrounded in yellow, white or red ... so every above shown patch is existing in four variations ...

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Jens,

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought for a while that I was dreaming. So Steve would need a divisional badge with yellow border if he were to set up his uniform for the Armoured Engineer unit that I suggested. Actually, anyone on the brigade badges would work as I beleive all of them had engineer units attached to them. I don't remember seeing any engineer units attached to the headquarters staff.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Hi,

Gordon:

I don't remember seeing any engineer units attached to the headquarters staff

In a Division you must differentiate between the three Brigades and the "Divisionstruppen".

All the three Brigades had a Panzerpionierkompanie, with a "0" added to the Brigade number, e.g. Panzerbrigade 20 with Panzerpionierkompanie 200.

In the Divisionstruppen you can find a complete Pionierbataillon, with the same number as the Division, e.g. Panzerdivision 7 with Pionierbataillon 7.

The divisional badge (silver/black-white) is not only for the staff of a division, it is for all the Divisionstruppen, several thousand soldiers!

Divisionstruppen:
das Flugabwehrregiment 7 in Borken
das Panzeraufklärungsbataillon 7 in Augustdorf
das Fernmeldebataillon 7 in Lippstadt
das Pionierbataillon 7 in Höxter
das Sanitätsbataillon 7 in Hamm
das Nachschubbataillon 7 in Unna-Königsborn
eine Nachschubausbildungskompanie in Ahlen
drei Geräteeinheiten in Mülheim-Handorf
das Instandsetzungsbataillon 7 in Unna-Königsborn
die Heeresfliegerstaffel 7 in Rheine-Bentlage und
das Heeresmusikkorps 7 in Düsseldorf
die ABC-Abwehrkompanie 7 in Höxter

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7._Panz...8Bundeswehr%29


Especially the career officers changed several times their "Verbandsabzeichen" and their "internes Verbandsabzeichen".

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks for the info guys. My understanding is what Uwe has just said. Anybody assigned to a Divisional level unit gets the "division" badge with black/white border. Anybody assigned to a specific Brigade wears the "brigade" badge with either white, red, or yellow border.

I have spent more time with BW TO&E lately than most sane people could stand Especially the combat Battalions down to individual soldiers. Having Pioneer, Recon, and Antitank units assigned at Divisional, Brigade/Regiment, and often Battalion is extremely common for most nations since WW2 era.

With that in mind, I can use a large number of different badges for my Pioneer jacket. My problem is I want to use a high quality version, not a run of the mill bevo type. This is a private purchase jacket, after all, so I assume the officer would have not used the standard type. Unfortunately, all I have is a single badge which isn't from the correct timeframe. Any help pointing me towards a good period "hand stitched" type from this time period would be much appreciated.

Steve

[speedytop]

Hi Steve:

This is a private purchase jacket, after all, so I assume the officer would have not used the standard type.

You really think that?

In my collection you can find a Major/Oberstleutnant, an Oberst and a Brigadegeneral with the standard version! The OTL on the "Zweitaschenrock"!

You could buy both versions in the Kleiderkasse (1970):
Verbandsabzeichen, gewebt, each 1,20 DM
Verbandsabzeichen, handgestickt; different prices, from 11,20 DM to 20,90 DM.

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Uwe,

Oh, I have no doubt about what you say. Sometimes officers wear standard badges for one or more reasons. But do you think it is normal for an officer to spend maybe 100-150DM or more on a jacket (do you know the 1970 cost?) and then "go cheap" to save 9DM or 19DM on the badge? I think if we looked at 10 Zweitaschenrock or private purchase Viertaschenrock I bet most would have handgestickt Abzeichen. But this is a guess because I do not have 10 such jackets

Steve

[Asbjoern]

If I remember correct the label in a brand new KKB Leutnant tunic with french cuffs I purchased this year tells a price of 132,- Marks !

Wich stile of badge is word als depends on the status of the jacket. I know active soldiers which have a extra tunic in better fabric etc for special events and a every day tunic ...

Regards,

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon - Were you referring to 1. Panzergrenadier Division (top row, second from the left)?

All the best - TJ

TJ,

I was a little off the beam when I answered this post the last time. The picture I posted was the wappen and not the arm shiled of the unit that I was trying to illustrate. You were 100% correct that the arm shield that would be worn was the one you suggested. As Jens reminded me, there were different borders used to identify the brigades within the division; silver with black diagonal stripes for divisional headquarters troops, a white border for the first brigade, a red border for the second brigade and a yellow border for the third brigade. Sorry for that.

Regards,

Gordon