M43 type cap

[myddrcaps]

Could some one please tell me a little about the cap shown in this link? http://sharky-fourbees.blogspot.com/...m-43-hats.html Its not East German. The cockade is very crude, I would expect better quality from West Germany or Unified Germany. Is this some sort of fake/copy? What about the date when it was used? Does it date from the early 1990s??

Thanks
George

[hoover]

Seems to be the reproduction sold by Sturm...

[Collectinsteve]

To be clear, the website is saying the item was produced in the east after the DDR collapsed but before the fate of the Volksarmee was decided. Therefore, the hats were supposedly produced under strained DDR standards, which certainly would produce bad results

I find it very likely that the story is true. The cloth looks like DDR Sommerfeldanzug to me, though it is impossible to tell for sure from the pictures. I can easily see a factory, with nothing better to do, taking existing stocks of cloth and trying to make something useful out of it. Other factories simply kept on producing the same things they made before the DDR collapsed because they didn't know what else to do.

I have seen commercial BW M43 caps before and the quality is better and they look more like the real hats. This one pictured is quite different and inferior.

Note that STURM not only produces things but also resells items they have purchased wholesale. It is entirely possible that STURM has been selling these same hats, but that does not necessarily mean they were made for STURM in recent years. That is, of course, also a possibility.

Steve

[Gene T]

"Mil-Tec" is Sturm's house brand. Mil-Tec labeled M43 hats are made out of moleskin (as are all of their reproduction cotton garments). They also have the very low profile cut of the current Bundeswehr field cap. Judging from the photos the blogger had posted, the mystery cap in question is clearly different in both material and cut, and lacks the tell-tale Mil-Tec label.

I was tempted to place an order for these, but I didn't want to have 10 identical caps sitting around (especially if they had been Mil-Tec labeled, which I had suspected them to be). I certainly didn't expect them to sell out so quickly!

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=690774

My guess is that more than a few surplus stores jumped on this deal, so I might see these show up at one of my local stores in the coming weeks, no doubt carrying a 900% mark-up.


Gene T

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I find this story to be on the unbelievable side. From May of 1990 until Oct 2 of 1990 the NVA produced a number of modifications to their standad uniform but they consisted of only minor changes. The West German cockade for the DDR logo on visor caps. Plain buttons for General officers uniforms instead of those having the state crest on them etc. The feeling of the DDR government of the time was that there would be two Germanies and the NVA would remain as a separate army from the Bundeswehr. We all know that this did not happen. Following the 2nd of October 1989 other minor changes were made. Such as adding the Bundeswehr national flag to the arms of NVA field uniforms etc. The DDR did not produce new uniforms following the 2nd of October 1989. There was no need as those NVA members who became part of the BW wore Bundeswehr uniforms when they became available. To me, these caps are pure fiction.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

I highly doubt these were actually put onto any soldiers' head. Ever. But that's not the story being told about this by that website.

The part I find believable is a factory in the East tried to find a role for itself in the new Germany before it got snuffed out. Quick knockoffs of BW items seems to me a very logical method of trying to establish a reason for retaining the factory's facilities and personnel in the new unified Germany. At the very least when workers show up for work they are expected to do something. Since there was little point in having them churn out old uniforms for an army that had adequate stocks of uniforms already and was also being phased out... well, if I were a manager there I would try to be creative in order to keep my job.

The other alternative is these hats were made as cheap knockoffs in recent years. Entirely possible and perhaps even more likely. Yet there are two things that bother me about this:

1. The pattern of the cut is all wrong for a BW hat, yet it need not be. All standard BW items have patterns in PDF format that anybody can download (I have most on my harddrive). Why would someone make their own patterns to mimic something (poorly) when they could just download the actual specifications for free and just use those?

2. The construction and materials are sub standard. Yet these were supposedly, at least according to Sportsmans Guide (and they are legally required to be accurate), made in Germany. It's puzzling to me that these items would not be higher quality and made form Moleskin material.

Still, stranger things have been known to happen so it is entirely possible these substandard hats were made in recent years within Germany for a quick buck.

In any case, I think we all are in agreement that these have little to no value to a collector. They certainly are not BW issue, they certainly are not Volksarmee issue. If they were made on speculation during the transition to a unified Germany there is some historical value there, but I'd say not much to most collectors.

Anyway, if someone has hard information about these hats I'm sure we would all be interested to know the truth

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

If these hats were made in substantial numbers by the DDR they would have shown up long ago when the masses of NVA uniforms hit the collector market. There is no record of their ever existing and saying they are authentic from a picture doesn't hold any water. Anyone can make a cap that looks like something from the past. I haven't seen any makers labels posted and they would be of interest. Too me, and I think to most other knowledgable East German collectors, these caps will remain a fantasy item and not worth collecting. I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this point.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

Oh, I definitely agree this isn't collecting worthy. I certainly won't be adding any to my collection even if one is given to me for free. So no disagreement there

Things show up at odd times and for reasons that we consumers rarely know about. For example, I've seen Blumentarn backpacks showing up all over the place in recent months. You'd think that if there was going to be a sudden glut in the market it would have been 10 or 20 years ago, but someone found a bunch recently and now the market is full of them. Similar story with the RPD ammo pouches in Strichtarn and Blumentarn. Never even heard of them before, then all of a sudden a few months ago a gun parts store has them listed as a stock item cheap. They're all gone now.

All I'm saying is that we can't really be certain of pretty much anything. These hats could be recent made junk for who knows what purpose. Or they could have been made during the chaotic final days of the DDR or chaotic early days of Reunification, then forgotten about until recently. As far as I'm concerned both are equally valid and perhaps even probable possibilities. The only thing we have to guide us, either way, is one unsubstantiated website profile of the hat. That's obviously not a lot to go on.

As per usual common sense collecting... I assume these are junk unless proven otherwise. And even if they are as the website says, I still have zero interest in them as a collector

Steve

[myddrcaps]

Thanks for the replys. I thought they were some sort of "new made replica".
I did find the story kind of intriging, but unlikely.

Thanks

[uscob]

Gentlemen,

I find this story to be on the unbelievable side. From May of 1990 until Oct 2 of 1990 the NVA produced a number of modifications to their standad uniform but they consisted of only minor changes. The West German cockade for the DDR logo on visor caps. Plain buttons for General officers uniforms instead of those having the state crest on them etc. The feeling of the DDR government of the time was that there would be two Germanies and the NVA would remain as a separate army from the Bundeswehr. We all know that this did not happen. Following the 2nd of October 1989 other minor changes were made. Such as adding the Bundeswehr national flag to the arms of NVA field uniforms etc. The DDR did not produce new uniforms following the 2nd of October 1989. There was no need as those NVA members who became part of the BW wore Bundeswehr uniforms when they became available. To me, these caps are pure fiction.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon, that's complete bull****, produces as modification and all this stuff. The NVA never used modified Equipment, these Caps were in Stock and used in the "NVA" after the Reunification so in the Bundeswehrkommando Ost. There was really no need to produce own Caps. Others are maybe right when they say it's a Sturm Repro but I would say it's somebody elses Repro. The ones from Sturm we sell to Farmers etc. are like the original except the label. They Match the TL in all criteria.
BTW: I met Sturm today and got this about my Car.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...01#post4194101

[Gordon Craig]

Nico,

I am afraid that we are going to have to disagree here. If you look at Klaus Walter's book "Uniformeffekten der bewafffeneten Organe der DDR" there are references to BRD style cockade being used. For instance, page 140 Kockarde fur Feldmutze #788 "Schwarze-Rot Gold, maschingestikt, 23mm, wie fur Wachmeisterdienstgrade Nr. 781 "Juli-Oktober 1990".
My understanding has always been that this type of insignia was worn for a few months before the NVA ceased to exist. There has been many references made on this forum to the wear of this type of insignia during what is termed the "interim period". If you can prove to me that these references are incorrect I would be very interested in reading your reference sources.

Regards,

Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Gentlemen,

I'm with Gordon on this one.

Back in the very early '90's (1993, to be precise) I purchased an NVA para beret (in Berlin, from one of the Brandenburger Tor Turks). Affixed to it (over the NVA cockade) was a Bundeswehr one.

At this time there was an active group of East German collectors (they had their own magazine) and I posed the question to them: 'Was this possible?' The resounding answer: 'Yes'. During the immediate post-reunification period NVA uniforms were worn, to which the BRD cockade was attached. A similar situation to the post-Anschluss period, I believe.

As regards the cap that started the thread: in my opinion it is not 'real' (in the sense that it is, or was, NVA issue).

All the best,

Hugh

[uscob]

Nico,

I am afraid that we are going to have to disagree here. If you look at Klaus Walter's book "Uniformeffekten der bewafffeneten Organe der DDR" there are references to BRD style cockade being used. For instance, page 140 Kockarde fur Feldmutze #788 "Schwarze-Rot Gold, maschingestikt, 23mm, wie fur Wachmeisterdienstgrade Nr. 781 "Juli-Oktober 1990".
My understanding has always been that this type of insignia was worn for a few months before the NVA ceased to exist. There has been many references made on this forum to the wear of this type of insignia during what is termed the "interim period". If you can prove to me that these references are incorrect I would be very interested in reading your reference sources.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon, to me this is not modified but the new Regulation of 1990.
My point was that this Cap doesn't has to be a modified Cap as they were in Stock by thousands and came into use AFTER the reunification. They were never used by the NVA but the Bundeswehrkommando OST. The "Modified" Cap Badges didn't used the West German cocade as the DDR had enough Reichsbahn Bulls Eyes. They have the round wire Pins on the back and not as the BW used flat Pins. Do you understand what I mean?
The Point I mean is the 3rd of October where everything changed. I didn't meant the cocade. I know that it was in use as I have several Caps with it.

[Gordon Craig]

Nico,

I understand your point. There is a section in the 1990 Uniform regulations DV 010/0/005 page 13 III. Trageweise der Bekleidung und Ausrüstung; Kopfbedeckung - 18. Die Kockarde oder das Emblem der Kopfbedeckung hat, siuch lotrecht über der Nasenwurzel befinden. that seems to indicate that both types of cockade could be worn. I have had other German speaking collectors say that the language used in the 1990 regulations could be interpreted in other ways and I can not refute that. Other reference books, like the one I quoted, seem to indicate that a BRD style cockade was worn before October 3 1990. The point here is, why print new uniform regulations dated Berlin, den 20, 03, 1990 if the DDR did not expcet to continue wearing their uniforms in the forseeable future.
As I said previously, it is my understanding that it was an accepted fact on this forum that hat badges with a type of BRD cocakde were worn before October 3, 1990. Whether it was a Reichsbahn cockade, a newly made DDR cocakde or an actual BRD cockade I don't beleive can be established. This may be very difficult to prove as the time frame when this would have taken place would have been just a few months. I do beleive that from the available reference material published that the BRD type cocakde was used on some caps in place of the DDR Sate emblem prior to 3 October 1990.
There is not doubt that DDR uniforms, for example NVA and Polizei, were worn with BRD embelms on them starting from 3 October until some later date.
Perhaps this is one of those things where there are two points of view that will remain that way for some time with the hope that some concrete evidence to support one theory or the other will surface in the future.
Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts in this area.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Hello Gentlemen,

I'm with Gordon on this one.

Back in the very early '90's (1993, to be precise) I purchased an NVA para beret (in Berlin, from one of the Brandenburger Tor Turks). Affixed to it (over the NVA cockade) was a Bundeswehr one.

At this time there was an active group of East German collectors (they had their own magazine) and I posed the question to them: 'Was this possible?' The resounding answer: 'Yes'. During the immediate post-reunification period NVA uniforms were worn, to which the BRD cockade was attached. A similar situation to the post-Anschluss period, I believe.

As regards the cap that started the thread: in my opinion it is not 'real' (in the sense that it is, or was, NVA issue).

All the best,

Hugh

Hugh,

Good to hear from you again. I was thinking of sending you an email to see how things were with you as I haven't seen a post from you for some time.
Nico and I agree that NVA uniforms were worn post DDR times with BRD insignia attached. I E BRD Cockades and West German flags on the shoulders of some uniforms. My point was that BRD type cockade were worn, in some instances, in place of the state emblem for a few months before the end of the DDR IE 3 October 1990. These last few months of the DDR are normally referred to on the forum as the "interim period". At the moment that leaves us with two theories. My theory is based on previous discussions on the forum and some post DDR printed reference books. One of us will prove to be correct but more time and study is needed to decide which of us is.

Regards,

Gordon