Early BGS Jaeger Load Carrying Equipment

[Guardian 5]

Team - Inspired by the excellent photos on the Beim Alten BGS website
http://www.beim-alten-bgs.de/index.html and the outstanding equipment diagrams placed on the "chest rig" thread by sgtmunroe I decided to try and put together some c.1951 - 1971 BGS rifleman set-ups.

It was entirely too hot to take this project on today, but I did manage three rigs before I ran out of gas.

First up is a c.1951 set-up. There is a lot of wartime gear in this set-up, to include the M1911 ammo pouches, mess tin, e-tool, and protective mask. The other gear, while post-war made, would be easily recognizable to any wartime landser.

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Fast forwarding five years, we can see that all of the gear with the exception of the e-tool is post war made, but still follows the Wehrmacht pattern closely. The M1911 ammo pouches for the Kar98k have yielded to a new model designed to accomodate the 20 round magazine of the G1 (the "C" series or Canadian version of the FN FAL).

Again, a wartime landser would have no trouble using this gear.

[Guardian 5]

This late sixties rig sees a complete redesign of the protective mask carrier, e-tool & carrier, and field flask. The gas mask carrier and e-tool would have also been in use with 60s era Bundeswehr units. Soon however, the increasingly mechanized Bundeswehr would phase out the metallic tube design of the protective mask carrier in favor of a more "mech friendly" rubber zip-up satchel. They also opted for a different design for the e-tool carrier.

The BGS and civil defense services opted for the canteen design shown here, although one occasionally comes across a BW style "M59 / oliv" field flask in BGS forest green. The BGS also retained the use of the bread bag, long after the Bundeswehr adapted the small fighting pack with internal stowage of the mess tin.

I guess a side-by-side comparison of the early Bundeswehr and BGS rigs would be in order, although that will have to wait for next weekend. I'm way over due for a nice cold one!

Al the best - TJ

[Klaus1989]

Nice setups TJ! I will post some of mine later this week. So some of your equipments are wartime? I have never known differences between wartime and postwar made straight shovel.

I wonder also about y-straps in first photo. They look like wartime mounted y-straps but not sure BGS used these? The BGS y-straps were adopted early on. I also notice different shades of green between second and third setups. Is this early vs later manufacture? I have breadbag like second one in colour but stamp is too faded to read date.

Actually looking at this photo from 1952 that you posted long ago, y straps not look like they were common in early BGS:


regards
Klaus

[sgtmonroe]

Very nice stuff TJ.

Here is one I did of "basic" BGS equipments...since I can't find the originals.

[Guardian 5]

Klaus - The e-tool is of wartime pattern. It is stamped with the "little man & a shovel" trademark of the Idealspaten Company of Herdecke in the Ruhr Valley (see below). This company has made e-tools for the Kaiser's troops as well as the BGS and Bundeswehr. They're still in business making high end gardening tools for German yuppies. There is no date. The clue to its post-war use is seen on the carrier. The carrier carries wartime stempels and stamps, but was apparently refurbished by Carl Busse of Mainz, a wartime manufacturer, in 1954. The BGS was active during this period and photographic evidence shows that this type of spade and carrier was worn well into the 60s.

The Y-strap in the first photo is stamped "C. Riesse Berlin 1954". It also carries the "P.Pr.Bln." (Polizei Presidium Berlin) stamp indicating probable service with the West Berlin Bereitschaftpolizei, but I'm sure I've seen this type used by the BGS. The u-shaped flap on the rear strap is pretty distinctive and I know I've seen it on a BGS Jaeger with his back to the camera in a period photo.

I changed up the bread bags to keep people like you on their toes. I'm confident all shades we're at one time or another used by the BGS, but have yet to complete a detailed analysis (it's on the list....)

I'm looking forward to seeing your set-ups. I should have close-ups loaded by the end of the week.

sgtmunroe - Your graphic design talent never ceases to amaze. The shot of the G1 is particularly cool. Educational, informative and pleasing to the eye - I'm impressed!

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Close up of the early 1950's mess tin and field flask. The mess tin is marked "kvu 44" (maker presently unknown to me). This field flask is unmarked, but I have a very similar one marked "CFL 51". We know CFL's wartime manufacturer name, but haven't been able to verify if this code was also used in the post-war era. See the "M1931" thread below for more discussion.

I have a post-war oliv mess tin that matches the color of the post-war canteen cup more closely, I just can't seem to put my hands on it right now.

TJ

[Guardian 5]

Here's a closer look at the 60's era "jumbo" sized mess tin and field flask.

The mess tin is not dated. It is maker marked "PSL" for Paul Schulze & CO, Lübeck.

The field flask and cup are stamped "BUND 8465-12-169-0792". Presumably, this number represents the "Versorgungs Nummer" or "Vers. Nummer". This number is thought to closely correspond the the national stock number (NSN) in the U.S. inventory system.

I believe we earlier established that BUND represents items procured by the Federal Government for Federal paramilitary organizations (BGS, ZB, etc.) but not the Bundeswehr.

Experten - Please let me know if I'm off the mark here.

Thanks - TJ

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Greetings Gentlemen!

The "BUND" topic raises it's head again!

I'll "dig-out" some of my field gear and send photos (via Gordon). I am not certain that we can be so definate as to moot (if that's the right term in this context) the proposition that material marked "BUND" is entirely non-military or para-military in intended use. In this regard, I draw attention to the "BUND"-marked jerry-can in my collection and the discussion of it on another thread. If I recall correctly, the "conclusion" (if such can be had on this topic) was that it was used by the military, although marked "BUND".

Cheers as always,

Hugh

[MaxxBrunn1938]

I've a question and this may sound like a stupid one but I really don't know. I want to put together a few kits together and was wondering what is the differance in the Breadbag colors, ie blue, green, and gray?

Thanks

Joe

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Joe,

If memory serves:
Blue - Polizei;
Green - BGS;
Grey - Civil use, eg. Fire brigade; Emergency Services; etc.;
Brown/Khaki - Early BGS (pre- 1955) and/or civilian.

You have to also note that grey and tan-coloured "bags" were used by the NVA and these can be very similar to Wewst German formations from the 1950'-60"s. To my knowledge, the Bundeswehr proper never wore the pre-1945 style breadbag - but I could be wrong.


Like Thomas, I have a real interest in Post-1945 German field gear and equipment and I am really enjoying this particular thread!

Cheers,

Hugh

[Guardian 5]

Hugh - I wholeheartedly concur that the "BUND" question has not been put entirely to rest; your jerry can attest to that.

I think as more study is dedicated to the early BW and BGS, specifically on the frequency that they borrowed gear from eachother, as well as the early BGS propensity for using olive green paint on their gear rather than the later forest green, we may be able to solve this mystery once and for all.

In the meantime, my wife and daughters think I have a screw loose for caring about minutiae like this, and sometimes I think they're right......

All the best - TJ

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hello Thomas,

I know that I have a screw loose, but my Wife and Son still love me.

The "BUND" question, as you know from my other postings, is something which vexes me greatly. It all started when I began putting together appropriate field equipment to compliment my BW vehicle (the 181). I noticed that some items were marked "Bundeswehr"; some "Bundes Eigentum" and others just "BUND". When I put the jerry-can up for discussion, it was my hope that a German veteran (which is how I class anyone who has done any appreciable military service) would be able to "set me straight" as to what gear should be in and around a BW vehicle. We all know where that went.

So, at the risk of sounding like some form of obsessive, it's now come to the point where I'm reluctant to speak in absolutes, ie. "BUND"-marked means non-military use.

Sharing information like this (and the wonderful array of material which is depicted photographically in this thread) goes a long way toward expanding our knowledge base and , maybe, the resolution of this issue.

You may have a screw loose, but "straight" people are never as interesting as eccentrics like us.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Klaus1989]

You have to also note that grey and tan-coloured "bags" were used by the NVA and these can be very similar to Wewst German formations from the 1950'-60"s.

I recently sold my 1957 dated NVA breadbag, but important difference is lack of leather reinoforcements.

Thanks for the research TJ. I will look at some more early BGS photos when my home internet is working again (at library now and time is up).

regards
Klaus

[Guardian 5]

Klaus - Do you have any more date / and or manufacturer codes you can share with us from your hardware?

Thanks - TJ

P.S. - This invitation is open to all......