BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[michelwijnand]

Nice, didn't want to pay any more than that for the pants because of the condition, and not being 100% sure about them being right.

There was a pack on ebay yesterday, which sold for 2,51 I think it was...
Meanwhile, I'm missing out at the last second on some boots...

Oh, and did BGS boots ever have this sole pattern?


Sideview to see shape


Cheers,
Michel

[Collectinsteve]

Since the BGS conversation turned towards the packs, I just thought I would let everyone know that "The Sportsman's Guide" currently has these in stock for $50.00 http://www.sportsmansguide.com/produ...sack?a=1809720

I have one of these packs that came from a friend in Germany several years ago, but if I was in the market for one today, I would definitely pick up one from the SMG.

Nice find!

For some reason my local surplus shop had a shopping basket full of them a few years back. They were available along with some ZB backpacks, which are similar. The price was super cheap so I bought one in nearly unissued condition. Why they were at this place and not others at the time is a mystery to me. I know the shop gets most of its foreign stuff through STURM.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Nice, didn't want to pay any more than that for the pants because of the condition, and not being 100% sure about them being right.

There was a pack on ebay yesterday, which sold for 2,51 I think it was...
Meanwhile, I'm missing out at the last second on some boots...

Oh, and did BGS boots ever have this sole pattern?

Cheers,
Michel

Never seen this sole pattern, I suspect replacement soles? The only 2 patterns, that I am familiar with are the Continental soles and an early wavy pattern from early-mid 50s. The toe look more "Bundeswehr" shaped.

Regards
Klaus

[Asbjoern]

...and with the "horse-Shoe" at the heel it reminds me to the Wachbataillon boots ...

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Me too! The soles are also very heavily worn, which I think would be the case for Wachbatallion boots. My guess is they are worn a lot more than other jackboots in German service.

I also have not seen soles like that before. But it makes sense for Wachbatallion. They do not need an aggressive sole since they do not go "off road"

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Is there any pattern of Wachbataillon boots with "Demokratieschnallen" though? Thought, that they not have them. Look like regular Bw boots to me, only resoled for some reason (civil use?).

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

The guy has 3 pairs of these exact boots listed for sale, but they all look slightly different than normal BW ones as the front half. Less of a giant toe lump than the ones I own.
But so these will not be good for my BGS kit, if they aren't confirmed as anything.

Straps for my Zelt are on the way, a patch has been made onto my tunic, and the shovel and breadbag have arrived.
It's really starting to look like something now.

Another question though, what would be the belt-kit worn by a Wachtmeister? (70's, around when the arch patch started being worn)
Would they have regular magazine pouches for G1, or maybe MP5 ones? Or just a pistol and other gear? (flare gun, map pouch or something?)

Does anyone have photos of MP5 pouches in use? I have only one, of several BGS in a night exercise, crouched behind an armored car.

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

Boot sole could be for some civil organisation like Feuerwehr, THW, ZB? I know, that some of these wore similar boots.

What equipment Wachtmeister would have depend on mission and position. Gruppenführer would usually have MP, if WM not serve as one, normally FN FAL.

Many photos of MP5 pouches from 1970s. Here are a few from "BGS" magazine photos:



centre man has them:


2nd from left man:


on magazine cover:

[michelwijnand]

Thanks for that! I asked because I am thinking about maybe making another kit with my Sumpftarn parka and wool pants, and have 2 MP5 pouches and the holster from before laying around, so I'm scoping out possibilities, without having to buy duplicate gear. So no complete fieldgear, just something like belt with some items on, as my current one will have a complete set of gear already.

And when I took my parka out of storage, I understood what the thing is with the shoulderloop sizes, because then I saw the difference between the ones on my jacket and the parka. The jacket's loops are narrower, the parka's are big, and if I'm reading the code on the tag right, it's made in 77.
I bought some really cheap Wachtmeister shoulderboards today, and they do fit on the parka, but not the jacket, now I just need some correct buttons to really attach them.

I also wanted to post some pics of the hat and pants I just got, to see if the hat is right, and show some of the pants details to whoever wants to recognize some gear in the future.

The cap seems to be unused, there's only dust from storage on it, and no hole in the upper front as a sign of the color emblem ever having been attached.




And the pants have some quite nice details, like the knee area in the front having plastic inside to waterproof the area.




The cargo pockets have some extra pockets inside, on the left side there's a large flat pocket, and 3 smaller ones with loops above them, maybe for handgrenades? The right side only has the 3 small pockets with loops.



Here's the stamp, and a view of the waist adjustment, which is attached center-back, and goes through a sleeve to the buttons.



Inside center-back there are these 2 loops to attach a suspender to, which can be hidden into a pocket.


Here's the adjuster at the ankle.



And the top of the fly ar front, with the extra flap.



Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

because hat is unissued, could explain why no kokarde on it, although it need one to "complete" it.

A couple different kits, that I have noted for Gruppenführer, that you can use as starting point:

- field exercises, maneuvers, etc.: belt, MP5 pouches (usually worn as pair), P1 holster (not sure how often?), y straps, binoculars. Mapcases were usually carried in 1950s-60s, so I assume still in 1970s. Seem to be lighter equipped than other ranks, so not really need breadbag, shovel, etc in most cases. Helmet with net or soft cap, varies.

- border patrols: belt, P1 holster, binoculars (but no camo!). Soft cap, no helmet.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

And when I took my parka out of storage, I understood what the thing is with the shoulderloop sizes, because then I saw the difference between the ones on my jacket and the parka. The jacket's loops are narrower, the parka's are big, and if I'm reading the code on the tag right, it's made in 77.

Definitely not 1977 as Sumpftarn production ceased in 1975 (possibly some items in early 1976, but I've never seen one). Because the rank loops are for the 2nd type the Parka's date is 1971-1975. At least I think 1971 was the change to the 2nd rank type. Check the liner to see if it is dated. Chances are that is also the date for the parka.

I bought some really cheap Wachtmeister shoulderboards today, and they do fit on the parka, but not the jacket, now I just need some correct buttons to really attach them.

Not as easy to find as the pocket buttons, but you should be able to locate some at some point. IIRC they are 17mm.

I also wanted to post some pics of the hat and pants I just got, to see if the hat is right, and show some of the pants details to whoever wants to recognize some gear in the future.

Nice detail pictures! The light wool version is identical.

Shame the moths got at yours

The cargo pockets have some extra pockets inside, on the left side there's a large flat pocket, and 3 smaller ones with loops above them, maybe for handgrenades? The right side only has the 3 small pockets with loops.

I have no idea what these pockets were designed to carry. I am curious too!

Steve

[RJKG]

Noticed these BGS jackets for sale at The Victory Show in the UK last month. Unsurprisingly some of them were additionally badged up with 3R insignia.

The end jacket on the rail was a bit out of the usual in that it appeared to be a BW sand coloured variant but with BGS epaulettes and collar patches (the sleeve badge was a spurious 3R addition). Unfortunately I didn't get a close-up, as the stall holder didn't appear to be very co-operative with photography !

[michelwijnand]

Thanks for the description of WM gear, I think I'll go with the field exercise option you mention, and then with the cap, as the helmet is already reserved for the Jäger kit.
I think I have 2 different diameter Kokarde, some on my Luftwaffe officer hats look bigger than one on a Gebirgsjäger hat I have, would the smaller one be correct, or the larger?
Here's my start for it, minus the shoulderboards which I bought a day after this photo.



And Steve, I didn't know Sumpf production stopped then, here's the tag from the liner though, which is the only tag still present in the parka, and where I saw the 77, no idea what it does mean though.



And I've seen some shoulderboards for sale with buttons sometimes, high ranks though. Maybe if I see some cheap enough I'll just buy them for the buttons.

And funny thing about the weird pockets on the wool pants, is that the other cotton pants don't have anything remotely like it, just simple empty cargo pockets. Someone pulled out some stops when designing this thing!

And yeah, really too bad about moths, but there's just a few holes, luckily most is just surface damage. It'll look way better already after a good wash!
It's really dusty, and has quite a few animal hairs on it.

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

was not aware, that there are 2 different sizes of Kokarden. All my hats have same size, so I am not sure, if larger or smaller. Have photos and/or measurements of them?

The shoulderboard buttons on the jackets are 16 mm, but maybe the parkas are different? 17 mm seem odd size for them and much harder to find than 16 mm. I doubt, that 1975 is an exact cutoff date of Sumpftarn (unless Steve has a source for this?). Replacement of parkas was a little slower than some other uniform articles, if I remember. The new uniforms were developed around 1974 and introduced 1976, but very few units received them until after 1977/78. Exception was GSE, who were first to receive new uniforms.

My guess would be small pockets on trousers for extra magazines, but not sure of size.

Regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Klaus,

The metal shoulder board buttons on my BGS parkas are 17 mm.

Regards,

Gordon