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**Furor Teutonicu** · 05-10-2009, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by yossarianlives View Post

anyone know a source for one of these - webbing shovel/e-tool cover (the one klappspaten is shown in)? looking for unissued one:

Try ranger-shop.de under Zubehor und Tecknik.

But if they have not got the exact one, it is not impossible they will do NEXT time. There stock does get refreshed, but if it is not in stock when the page is updated, it is not shown.

Bye the way. I suspect the one you show is actualy Swiss army. I have one here exactly the same.

**Guardian 5** · 05-11-2009, 05:58 PM

Furor Teutonicus - The entrenching tool and carrier are early Bundeswehr as evidenced by the photo below. It can be seen being worn by the Soldat closest to the camera on the left hip. From what I can tell, the canvas carrier was fielded in 1959 only and then immediately replaced with the more familiar leather model.

I cannot be certain about the saw. I didn't even know it was part of the kit until Genosse Viktor of the DDR forum published pictures similar to those above last year. Genosse Viktor is somewhat of a field gear specialist however, and if he says the saw is Bundeswehr, I'm inclined to believe him.

As an aside, Genosse Viktor and his colleagues developed a standard of authentication which the DDR forum has adopted. I hope the BRD forum will follow along. Essentially, one cannot state as a fact the use of field gear during a particular era unless they can provide an authentic picture of the gear in use or can point out where it was authorized in the appropriate field manual or regulation. Quotes from books don't count unless they are backed up with the same facts; authors can get things wrong just like forum moderators can....

In any event your participation and sources of supply are appreciated. I have yet to find a Bundeswehr militaria specialist in the U.S.

Take care - TJ

Attached Files

oliv e-tool carrier 1.jpg (174.4 KB, 615 views)

**Guardian 5** · 05-11-2009, 06:01 PM

A close-up of the picture; my apologies for the low quality.

TJ

Attached Files

oliv e-tool carrier 2.jpg (5.7 KB, 610 views)

**Gordon Craig** · 05-12-2009, 01:02 AM

TJ,

Good comment about the DDR Forum; " As an aside, Genosse Viktor and his colleagues developed a standard of authentication which the DDR forum has adopted. I hope the BRD forum will follow along. Essentially, one cannot state as a fact the use of field gear during a particular era unless they can provide an authentic picture of the gear in use or can point out where it was authorized in the appropriate field manual or regulation. Quotes from books don't count unless they are backed up with the same facts; authors can get things wrong just like forum moderators can...."

This is a practice that evolved over a period of time and I don't remember anyone "adopting" it formally. Simply put, it evolved because anyone can make a statement about anything but only those who have researched a specific area or artifact and can post regulations, pictures or statements from books to support what they have written in a thread are taken seriously. I include books, and as you say they can be mistaken, because they are at least in print and someone obviously spent time and effort to corroborate their statement before putting it in a book so we have to give some credence to the statement until proven otherwise.
In the end, it is people like Viktor who really concentrate in one area that get a really good feel for a specific type of artifact. There is no substitute for holding something in your hand and comparing it to other specimens of a similar type.
To a large extent, the DDR Forum owes its success to the lengths people go to to ensure they post correct information. As well, if they should make an error they are willing to admit it and continue the dialog with other forum members.
It is importatnt that no one think of themselves as more knowledgable than anyone else in a field as broad as the study of unfiorms, badges, medals etc as used in the BRD. We all know a little and the purpose of the forum is to share authenticated facts, or ask questions when we do not have all of the information we need, to be better informed on a certain artifact, service, time frame etc. The worst word in collecting, at least to me, is "expert" as I do not consider there is such a thing. Only collectors who may have spent many hours studying a specific artifact or subject and are therefore considered "knowledgable".
Having said all of the above, we are still free to state some conclusion we have come to, as long as we state it is such, and be willing to accept what other collectors tell us what they think of our statements. One needs to throw out thoughts from time-to-time to get others thinking. Many interesting lines of investigation have started this way which have yeilded valuable information to collectors. I hope in the future that the BRD Forum can pursue many lines of investigation, the results of which we can record here for future collectors to use.

Regards,

Gordon

**Viktor** · 05-12-2009, 02:14 AM

Genossen,
Very good points, and thank you for your kind words

, as I like to think..

WIR BUILD!.

As for the Saw in the pocket of the E Tool Carrier, it came that way, finding that was Jam on top of the Cream Cake.

If you look back in the earlier pages of this Thread you will find the marking on the Carrier.

**Guardian 5** · 05-12-2009, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Gordon Craig View Post

TJ,

Good comment about the DDR Forum; " As an aside, Genosse Viktor and his colleagues developed a standard of authentication which the DDR forum has adopted. I hope the BRD forum will follow along. Essentially, one cannot state as a fact the use of field gear during a particular era unless they can provide an authentic picture of the gear in use or can point out where it was authorized in the appropriate field manual or regulation. Quotes from books don't count unless they are backed up with the same facts; authors can get things wrong just like forum moderators can...."

This is a practice that evolved over a period of time and I don't remember anyone "adopting" it formally. Simply put, it evolved because anyone can make a statement about anything but only those who have researched a specific area or artifact and can post regulations, pictures or statements from books to support what they have written in a thread are taken seriously. I include books, and as you say they can be mistaken, because they are at least in print and someone obviously spent time and effort to corroborate their statement before putting it in a book so we have to give some credence to the statement until proven otherwise.
In the end, it is people like Viktor who really concentrate in one area that get a really good feel for a specific type of artifact. There is no substitute for holding something in your hand and comparing it to other specimens of a similar type.
To a large extent, the DDR Forum owes its success to the lengths people go to to ensure they post correct information. As well, if they should make an error they are willing to admit it and continue the dialog with other forum members.
It is importatnt that no one think of themselves as more knowledgable than anyone else in a field as broad as the study of unfiorms, badges, medals etc as used in the BRD. We all know a little and the purpose of the forum is to share authenticated facts, or ask questions when we do not have all of the information we need, to be better informed on a certain artifact, service, time frame etc. The worst word in collecting, at least to me, is "expert" as I do not consider there is such a thing. Only collectors who may have spent many hours studying a specific artifact or subject and are therefore considered "knowledgable".
Having said all of the above, we are still free to state some conclusion we have come to, as long as we state it is such, and be willing to accept what other collectors tell us what they think of our statements. One needs to throw out thoughts from time-to-time to get others thinking. Many interesting lines of investigation have started this way which have yeilded valuable information to collectors. I hope in the future that the BRD Forum can pursue many lines of investigation, the results of which we can record here for future collectors to use.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon - Wow; well said.

Genosse Viktor - Thanks for committing "Republikflucht" to come over and see us. We hope you come to visit again soon (with more pictures of your BRD gear).

Take care - TJ

TJ

**Hugh Zillmann old** · 05-13-2009, 08:35 AM

Gentlemen,

Well said.

I have been collecting Bundeswehr gear for nearly thirty years now. The one thing I am certain of - how little I know and how much I have yet to learn.

Regards,

Hugh

**Ralph P** · 05-14-2009, 02:26 PM

Hello Zillmann - Thanks for your post. When time permits I know forum members would be interested in knowing more what you collect related to the BRD...

**Hugh Zillmann old** · 05-14-2009, 06:40 PM

Dear Ralph,

Please, call me Hugh.
My principal collecting areas (these days) are Austrian and BW uniforms and field gear for the period 1956 - 1980's. In addition to this, I also have Italian; East German and Russian uniforms, field gear and decorations for the same period.
I regularly participate in Airshows, Militaria shows, etc., here in Australia, where I display my "wares" under the banner "An die Grenze". The theme is always the same - the Cold War.
My vehicle, a VW Typ 181 Kubelwagen, is currently pictured on another thread in this Forum (which was kindly started by Gordon Craig - Thanks for that). As and when time permits and I am able to make some worthwhile contribution to the Forum, I'll send photographs of pieces that I have in my possession which may be of interest to other collectors.

Best regards,

Hugh

**Guardian 5** · 05-14-2009, 08:01 PM

Here I sit pondering the case of the eccentric Aussie with a fixation on the script found on the outside covers of esbit stoves.

As it turns out, he’s probably one of Australia’s premier Bundeswehr collectors, who, get this, actually owns a genuine BW Typ 181 Kubelwagen with original paint AND markings (Oh, how they obsess about the original paint over on the “Achtung, Panzer!”Forum…). And from said Kubelwagen one can see a 1955 battle dress uniform hanging from the rearview with a schneetarn smock in the background.

Suffice it to say Hugh, you never cease to amaze.

A mere two weeks as a moderator and I’ve already been gobsmacked at least twice.

Thanks for keeping it interesting.

To keep on the subject of the Bundeswehr, attached find some early issue trigger finger mittens to ponder. I bet Hugh has a footlocker full of them.

TJ

Attached Files

IMG_1751.JPG (180.4 KB, 575 views)

**Guardian 5** · 05-14-2009, 08:02 PM

Another view.

Attached Files

IMG_1750.JPG (183.1 KB, 574 views)

**Hugh Zillmann old** · 05-15-2009, 07:18 PM

Hello Thomas,

Many thanks for the kind words. My Wife totally agrees with the "eccentric" assessment.

Love the gauntlets/gloves. I do have a pair (used) which came-up for discussion on a thread started by Gordon relating to kapuze. The thread has been carried across to this Forum.

Your gloves/gauntlets are far superior to mine and obviously mint. Could you please post a close-up of the attached swing card, as I don't believe I have ever seen one of it's kind before.

All the best,

Hugh

**Viktor** · 05-16-2009, 03:05 AM

Removed by Moscow Centre.

Viktor is under going a prolonged period of Re-education...

Compliments to this Sector of this Progressive People's Forum...

Moscow Centre.

**Guardian 5** · 05-16-2009, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Zillmann View Post

Hello Thomas,

Many thanks for the kind words. My Wife totally agrees with the "eccentric" assessment.

Love the gauntlets/gloves. I do have a pair (used) which came-up for discussion on a thread started by Gordon relating to kapuze. The thread has been carried across to this Forum.

Your gloves/gauntlets are far superior to mine and obviously mint. Could you please post a close-up of the attached swing card, as I don't believe I have ever seen one of it's kind before.

All the best,

Hugh

Hugh - Here's my first attempt, I'll try for a clearer one later this weekend. The firm name is "LEDERHANDSCHUFABRIK Dr. Herbert Schmidtmann Velbert".

The manufacture date appears to be "v. 18. 8. 56".

TJ

Attached Files

IMG_1750.JPG (23.3 KB, 555 views)

**Ralph P** · 05-17-2009, 03:21 AM

Hugh - Very much appreicate your follow up and glad that you have found this forum...I stand by to learn more from you and others on this forum...

Originally posted by Hugh Zillmann View Post

Dear Ralph,

Please, call me Hugh.
My principal collecting areas (these days) are Austrian and BW uniforms and field gear for the period 1956 - 1980's. In addition to this, I also have Italian; East German and Russian uniforms, field gear and decorations for the same period.
I regularly participate in Airshows, Militaria shows, etc., here in Australia, where I display my "wares" under the banner "An die Grenze". The theme is always the same - the Cold War.
My vehicle, a VW Typ 181 Kubelwagen, is currently pictured on another thread in this Forum (which was kindly started by Gordon Craig - Thanks for that). As and when time permits and I am able to make some worthwhile contribution to the Forum, I'll send photographs of pieces that I have in my possession which may be of interest to other collectors.

Best regards,

Hugh

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