Craig Gottlieb & "Nazi War Diggers"

[muzrub]

Nice to see this threat has not been deleted.
nice to see there is freedom of speech on this forum.
Not like on warrelics.eu where every threat on this has been deleted .
The member have been told not to talk about.

Indeed, all the threads are gone.
Maybe because a War relics moderator is involved in the project.
From what I read on War relics--- before all this exploded --- it seemed most of the guys (on that forum) were in favour of the program



Cheers,

Jamie.

[Willi Z.]

His comments tell me alot about him.....

[Luftwaffegirl]

Thanks for the correction.

My Great Gramps never came home from WW1 and has no grave marker. If they dig up his remains in Belgium I would be most greatful! And they can keep all the relics found with him but for letters, photos, dog tags etc, selling the other stuff on eBay doesn't bother me at all.

My Opa never came home from fighting the Russians... It's horrid thinking that could be his bones they're playing with. I believe in respect, whether it's to the dead or living. Look at the Arizona, near Pearl Harbor. Same point. A soldiers death bed should not be publicly aired and desecrated. Anyone who thinks otherwise has questionable morals.

[eldenwaff]

Well... Since you've quoted me, then you've proven my point that I've been pretty neutral on the subject, and have merely pointed out the rudeness and childish ways people are treating each other in here.

I quoted you as one of the very few to have defended him here, twice within as many hours no less.
You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else, not sure what "point" you are trying to prove other than you are a CG fanboy and/or tolerate the desecration of war graves.

[jmark]

.Based on what, 30 seconds of a video where he looks like a fool?

The original clip on the National Geographic website, now removed, was about 10 or 11 minutes, if I remember correctly.

[Kelly w]

I remember watching shows about WW1 trench digs and when bodies were found it took them 3 days to remove them and a whole episode was done. Next episode was another body and 3 more days with the little brushes, not exactly entertaining TV. I say blame NG for bringing in CG and that idiot group and for trying to make a show out of it just for ratings. Maybe they were trying to match some of the nutballs at Pawn Stars UK.

[Ryan G.]

Re

My Opa never came home from fighting the Russians... It's horrid thinking that could be his bones they're playing with. I believe in respect, whether it's to the dead or living. Look at the Arizona, near Pearl Harbor. Same point. A soldiers death bed should not be publicly aired and desecrated. Anyone who thinks otherwise has questionable morals.

He appears totally unethical when he ripping the femur from the soil which he was pulling on for 10 plus seconds, which show some type of disconnect.

He appears unethical when he holds the human remains (clearly a femur) to his Glenoid Cavity (for a Humerus) This was an attempt to show that it is a human remain. Why? I have no idea. Maybe for educational purposes however, the attempt lead to confusion.

The entire team showed medical and archaeological incompetence when the other grave digger said its a arm bone......? ( Who was the professional on the dig site?) Craig G. was the only one that actually thought something wasn't right.

The team's entire performance was unethical when handling the femur, they almost showed a child like infatuation with the remains. This was summed up by the grave digger waving his arms around his head.

Lets pretend the human being was in a better state of decomposition, or none at all. He was literally ripping the man,women's or pediatric leg out of the earth and then passing it around to see if it was a leg. No professional would ever do something like that. One grave digger even told Craig G. try not to snap it because he was wrenching with such force.

As a RN, if I ever treated a human body like that with a patient who had just passed away regardless of who they are; a cadaver in one of my labs or human remains in bone boxes when I was studying.....I would be expelled from the hospital and from the school.

When I was a active paramedic, I never pulled on a deceased body like that when they where trapped in wreckage just to get them out. I would wait so it could be done properly and with some reverence. Craig didn't wait, rather than brush around the femur he ripped it out of the earth and passed it like a stick to another grave digger. Does it matter if you died 5min ago or 500 years ago?

I my professional opinion, the is no reverence and no grace for a deceased human here. In fact, its is very clear. Weather this is Craig G or whoever I don't really care.

Would anyone want their parents, child's, or friends body treated and displayed like this? I find it horrific and quite sad. Just because it says nazi war diggers or whatever its ok? I don't get it? I also don't get this morbid infatuation with a deceased human being either.

[kefru177]

here is the youtube channel of the 'Gadget Guy' Kris Rodgers on the nazi diggers programme:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Addictedtobleeps

And here is an article about his activities: http://conflictantiquities.wordpress...ted-to-bleeps/

Not for nothing but look at the postive reaction CG thread about the helmet and the mortar heads had originally. The responders did not enquire about where the objects came from or that he bypassed customs in Lativa. Is it ok to export ground dug items if you have plausable deniability about how they came out of the ground?

This article makes the suggestion that he sold the helmet: http://conflictantiquities.wordpress...raig-gottlieb/ so much for all items going to Museums

Perhaps if the community has not been so accepting of Ground dug in the past this programme would never have happened. If this thread is to go anyware it should energise an anti ground dug lobby that will have an impact on the rest of the collecting community.

Its up to all of you, but we are going to come out of this debate looking like hypocrites if we soundly beat up on CG and his 'talent digging team' while on other threads making positive comments on ground dug badges that we have no idea where they have come from.

[Bond]

Indeed, all the threads are gone.
Maybe because a War relics moderator is involved in the project.
From what I read on War relics--- before all this exploded --- it seemed most of the guys (on that forum) were in favour of the program



Cheers,

Jamie.

As regards the 2nd point, that was not true and plenty of the members there complained about this appalling mess.

Any who saw it before it was deleted will know that some of us complained in the first instance about the title and the use of CG as a presenter and then when the video clip was released slightly later, another raft of posts were made complaining about the completely unacceptable methodology used to excavate the human remains. The later released stills of them all trying to look like big game hunters with the spoils of the hunt was in incredibly bad taste.

As regards the first point, I have already stated that I will probably be leaving there over this and I might well be banned for contributing here.

[muzrub]

As regards the 2nd point, that was not true and plenty of the members there complained about this appalling mess.

Any who saw it before it was deleted will know that some of us complained in the first instance about the title and the use of CG as a presenter and then when the video clip was released slightly later, another raft of posts were made complaining about the completely unacceptable methodology used to excavate the human remains. The later released stills of them all trying to look like big game hunters with the spoils of the hunt was in incredibly bad taste.

As regards the first point, I have already stated that I will probably be leaving there over this and I might well be banned for contributing here.

Hi mate,

I don't wish to argue because we're on the same side here.

However, when I first read the main thread about the program on WRF before it all exploded, most supported the Moderator and his role in the program, in fact many rejoiced that a member of their forum now had their own program on NG.
Then, the tide turned as more, and more people become critical which led to the SHUTDOWN! of discussion. A shutdown which disgusts me--- Integrity! Where did it go?

Cheers,

Jamie

[Bond]

Hi mate,

I don't wish to argue because we're on the same side here.

However, when I first read the main thread about the program on WRF before it all exploded, most supported the Moderator and his role in the program, in fact many rejoiced that a member of their forum now had their own program on NG.
Then, the tide turned as more, and more people become critical which led to the SHUTDOWN! of discussion. A shutdown which disgusts me--- Integrity! Where did it go?

Cheers,

Jamie

I also don't wish to argue, but not all were supportive of it from the start and as more information was posted more posted against it as you mention.

The shutting of the thread was a knee jerk reaction to the program and a lot of behind the scenes discussion has taken place there and I do not think the last of it has been seen there yet.

At least some good things have come from this, firstly raising awareness to the archaeological community about what goes on during excavations in that part of the world and how in the main they lag far behind what would be considered good archaeological practice.

Secondly, though many here have posted about the good work done over there by others, but most of the repatriated remains are excavated using methods little better than that shown in the Nat Geo clip and are then turned over to the relevant authorities for reburial. Excavation is expensive and I think that in many cases any artifacts not needed for the identification of the remains are sold to fund the work, as there is little if any funding provided for the work, though this is not acceptable but perhaps viewed dispassionately is understandable on some levels. Perhaps those who collect dug relics should consider how and why these items came onto the market place and remember even those coming from reputable diggers will have in many instances have been dug in much the same fashion as that shown in the clip.

There are so many things wrong with the program, the title, the use of CG as a presenter and the appallingly insensitive and inept treatment of the human remains, but it is good that it has raised issues that many were not already aware of and at least for that hopefully some good will come from it.

[Jo Rivett]

Indeed, all the threads are gone.
Maybe because a War relics moderator is involved in the project.

This is not a "Third Reich Militaria Forum" issue. The same could be said for Craig Gottlieb, who after over a decade of shenanigans here on WAF, umpteen fantasy and fake items he peddled as well as a myriad of self-invented stories, accompanied by outright lies to support the item(s) he still found favor here amongst some. Every time something blew up about Gottlieb it was always "WAF this, and WAF that.." (from external sources) many threads about Gottlieb were closed or vanished, and on many other forums you would read the same about this forum.. "Oh but isn't Gottlieb a WAF lifetime member?" "Isnt Gottlieb a co-owner of WAF.." "Typical WAF censorship.."etc usw...

A forum, or sub-section of a forum as this "Living History" section is, can surely not be judged on the actions of one single member alone. It just cant be.

When we tip "NAZI WAR DIGGERS" into good old Google, we find pages (plural) of blogs, articles and newspapers - including the New York Times, Daily Mail and even some Asian newspaper - all voicing their disdain for this new bone fondling show, this "Race against time"

It is not a forum problem, or a Gottlieb problem even, it is the Bone-Show itself that is a big problem, for many people.

[ValhallaMilitaria]

But read this and get a sense of the true character of the guy who is not putting everything in the hands of museums; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=676136

I haven't looked at his site recently but didn't he have ground dug items for sale there? no where did those come from? hmmmm
I am going to stop posting or reading about him, its not healthy IMO and we've all given him far more attention on here than he ever deserved.
Eric

[kefru177]

I haven't looked at his site recently but didn't he have ground dug items for sale there? no where did those come from? hmmmm
I am going to stop posting or reading about him, its not healthy IMO and we've all given him far more attention on here than he ever deserved.
Eric

They probably came from a series of digs in Latvia during the programme or after. CG probably made contacts there during the series and they might have hooked him up with other booty.

And people often say that any publicity is good publicity, and I think that you post may allude to that mindset. However this is career destroying publicity for Mr Gottleib.

Have you noticed that his associates on the dig have gone to ground? Will he still be accorded a place in the SOS and collecting community after this?

He will be as popular as Walter White at a DEA convention at next years SOS

[alexanderautogr]

It is not a forum problem, or a Gottlieb problem even, it is the Bone-Show itself that is a big problem, for many people.

Exactly. Everything else detracts from the main issue, which is far, far more important. The responsible parties pay the price through their association with the whole lurid affair.

"Agitate, agitate, agitate!" - Frederick Douglass