Craig Gottlieb & "Nazi War Diggers"

[J. Wraith]

I totally agree with this, I'm not normally one for knee-jerk reactions but personally I'd bin the 'ground dug' section entirely - it's down there with collecting KZ items for me I cannot put my finger on it's a part of TR that makes just makes me uncomfortable (and yes I can see the irony in that last statement!).

You really have to question the mindset behind producing a show such as this for what has long been a premier history organization since as long as I can remember and in Nat-Geo make a calculation here that is understandable for television people as they have no real scruples. Their about ratings and selling advertising. But why name this thing Nazi War Diggers?. There is a reason for this and you have to step down and drop your morality and back into how these idiots think.

"Nazi" is used in names of television shows on history and other channels, but it has always been used on shows about history and where the context of the term fits the narrative. Here they use it in a reality series, and not only do I not recall that being done before but it begs the question why use it now?. Neither Pawn Stars nor Pickers talk about Nazi items, rick claims it creeps him out but he is know to buy it off screen. The pickers have walked right buy it in picks and they dont get near it wither. No reality t.v show does because its a sensitive time and era and the wounds are still open. But here their using.

The reason their using " Nazi " is to soften or offset the fact of what they are doing is wrong, but it is o.k here because they are " Nazi's ". So one would have to assume they were not sure of the repercussions of digging up bodies for entertainment television. What they did was make a gross miscalculation in judgement thinking that you can dig up Nazi's because their Nazi's and their bad people. What they did is beyond comprehension!.

1st of all the Nazi's or American's or whoever the person is falls under the same rules of ethic, decency, law, and respect that any other dead person commands. This is especially true for history collectors and history buffs in general. This is not a line that is ever crossed, and to do so one must lack a moral compass or scruples, or even a hint of decency and respect for the dead.

But now the issue is compounded by archialogists, lawyers, students, collectors, universities, and anyone who looks at it see's the same thing. But your breaking so many codes of conduct to premier entertainment that in this case it is not the military collector taking the brunt, but an entire community of professionals and men on the street screaming about something that is clearly a question of right and wrong. And then you have the cultural aspects where these idiots may be digging up some European guys relative, and the American's have no stomach for this under sheer decency and code that extends back to the beginning of time, you do not disrespect the dead. You certainly do not do it for television so some arsehole can make a name for himself.

There are so many issues in play here that it is difficult to address all of them in one post. They are essentially breaking all the rules, and their breaking every sense of ethic and respect for the dead. They may have a permit in Latvia but here they would be in jail. It matters not who lies in a grave whether it be an Indian at wounded knee, an American in France, or Vietnamese in Vietnam, so why would anyone think this is o.k?, because their Nazi's. Well? I think they screwed the pooch on that premise because the entire web is lit up like a jackpot machine with screaming people about this show. These are German soldiers, they are war dead and they deserve better than Craig Gottlieb digging them up so he can work his way into Hollywood.

Its bad on so many levels and I have never quite seen this before, whats amazing is this is National Geographic!!. Someone needs to get fired, not only that but if this airs someone needs to note the sponsors of the immoral debacle and piece of crap and if one of these jokers steps on a landmine I don't care.

[Lonewolf]

nazi war diggers

Good write up J.
I agree with your sentiments, indeed to make this whole thing palatable to the viewer they have labeled these soldiers as wholesale Nazis and most of the viewership by and large will be unsympathetic to the desecration that has occurred.
This whole thing really begs the question of who does Gottlieb think he is ?

[Jo Rivett]

They are essentially breaking all the rules, and their breaking every sense of ethic and respect for the dead.

Yes indeed Sir, this, what some people are calling Leichenfledderei is not sitting well at all, with many, for many reasons. The video is no longer on the NG site, but can be found on U-Toob ► http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ncPbxe9IUQ

[cjclick]

I haven't read all 92 responses yet, but I'm wondering if they have someone from the local government behind the scenes. I watched a special awhile back and it showed a man who is in charge of searching the forests in Germany for remains. He meticulously recorded data and location. He then recovered the remains and performed testing to see if there was a DNA match. Maybe this is being done, but they are skipping the boring details of the paperwork. This is what I do for a living myself.

On the other hand, networks were never known to have ethics to begin with. Just being the devil's advocate here.

[Mil-Archive]

The reason their using " Nazi " is to soften or offset the fact of what they are doing is wrong, but it is o.k here because they are " Nazi's ". So one would have to assume they were not sure of the repercussions of digging up bodies for entertainment television. What they did was make a gross miscalculation in judgement thinking that you can dig up Nazi's because their Nazi's and their bad people. What they did is beyond comprehension!.

1st of all the Nazi's or American's or whoever the person is falls under the same rules of ethic, decency, law, and respect that any other dead person commands.
. . . . .

Its bad on so many levels and I have never quite seen this before, whats amazing is this is National Geographic!!. Someone needs to get fired, not only that but if this airs someone needs to note the sponsors of the immoral debacle and piece of crap and if one of these jokers steps on a landmine I don't care.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that entire post above. I also believe that they thought by calling it 'nazi . . ' they'd be able to get away with it because in reality knew exactly how wrong it was. I think they miscalculated though.

The night I saw that trailer I had been communicating by email with an elderly man whose father was MIA on the Russian front. Can you imagine a frail elderly old man who lost his father as a child and who has only warm memories of a loving dad, flicking the tv channels and landing on these ****tards yanking bones of MIA soldiers out of the ground for cheap entertainment ? Traumatic would be the word and for what exactly ?

I'd guess the reason it was filmed last year and only coming up now is the time spent in editing it and then packaging it up to sell to a barrel scraping company like NG. Lets face it they have nose dived in terms of quality over the last decade or so. I still recall some mindblowing NG wildlife documentaries but they were late 1990's or so. There was one in particular about how a drought had caused predators to turn cannibal and to take on other predators within a competely disrupted natural order. Recently though they have gone the same way as the History/lumberjack/reality channel.

I'd love to find out what the German (& Russian) Government would have to say about a US reality tv show digging up fallen soldiers looking for loot & self promotion.

I'd guess it'd be the same as if it was a French or Italian reality tv having z-list celebs doing the same with the American war dead.

I don't see anyone involved in this who seems qualified in what they are doing. Or who would inspire confidence that there is any sense of dignity or respect involved with any of the activities they are engaging in. They look like they would take bets on who can find what and then laugh about it in the pub afterwards. They might as well wheel out one of the Kardasians in overalls to have a go for the cameras as any of those morons. I'd love to see each of them end up in court over this.

[Larry Davis]

Perhaps overwhelming the embassies of the countries involved (Latvia, Poland etc.) with complaints about this programme, (and of the activities of certain foreign nationals within their borders) and make it known that their involvement will be made very, very public.

[alexanderautogr]

I started this thread only a few days ago. Simultaneously, it exploded on other forums which appeal to (responsible) metal detector enthusiasts, with whom I personally have no complaint, WWII collectors and dealers, archaeologists, professionals in my field, National Geographic and other documentary enthusiasts, and dozens of other websites and blogs attracting thousands of other concerned individuals. The reaction has been overwhelmingly negative.

My family heavily supported the excavations at Santorini, Greece and built a museum at Marathon at the site of war graves of Platean soldiers. We contributed to the memorial to the victims of the WWII massacre at Kalavryta, Greece, my father's home for years. I don't say that to brag about our contributions, but rather to stress our involvement in preserving historic burial sites. Hence, my outrage at "Nazi War Diggers".

I don't condemn the participants in the series anywhere near as much as I condemn the producers. Clearly, the title of the show says it all, as any educated reader can see. Indeed, all the "digger" shows are disgraceful and potentially create a league of new, uneducated backhoe operators ruining important sites.

But now I must bow out, at least here. A competitor in the auction business who is associated with the production has insinuated that legal action may be forthcoming against me. I will save my ammunition for Nat Geo, and post in my own name. As the venerable Marshal Foch said: "My center is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack".

And here's my signature, protest if you must:

Bill Panagopulos
Alexander Historical Auctions

[hs132]

Hello, despicable. An event and personality like this could cause an implosion of negative attention to our already unfairly maligned hobby. Best, Bill Bourque

[Simon O.]

What Gottlieb et al are doing in this NG programme is reprehensible, but where do you all think 'ground dug' items come from.

Most of the items come from people living on the former Eastern Front who dig this stuff up and sell it. They probably care little for Human remains.

The next time someone comes on the forum with something ground dug think of Gottlieb and others like him who dig up graves for fun and profit.

Actually you're mistaken. Most stuff comes from places where it was dropped or thrown away, but we know that some does come from graves and we know there are 'black' diggers in the east that do this illegally for profit. We also know that some do think it all comes from graves which makes it even worse that these morons are doing this.
If no one bought ground dug items there would be no market for it, simple.

Part of me hopes CG and co did this in this way in order to provoke the obvious reaction they are getting in order for authorities to take more notice and clamp down on it. But maybe others are right and it was all done legally and properly behind the scenes with CG et al just stepping in front of the cameras to dumb it down for the trailer trash target audience.

[kefru177]

Actually you're mistaken. Most stuff comes from places where it was dropped or thrown away, but we know that some does come from graves and we know there are 'black' diggers in the east that do this illegally for profit. We also know that some do think it all comes from graves which makes it even worse that these morons are doing this.
If no one bought ground dug items there would be no market for it, simple.

Part of me hopes CG and co did this in this way in order to provoke the obvious reaction they are getting in order for authorities to take more notice and clamp down on it. But maybe others are right and it was all done legally and properly behind the scenes with CG et al just stepping in front of the cameras to dumb it down for the trailer trash target audience.

Please could you show me evidence to support your statement that most Ground Dug Items come from items dropped or thrown away? Quantifiable evidence not anecdotal?

When I see a ground dug badge with a broken hinge or pin there is a valid case to make that they were broken off in combat and fell to the ground. When you see a ground dug items that have all of the hardware attached why would someone throw it away ? More likely that it was on a soldier when they were buried and dug up.

The reasoning that most of these items come from honourable sources is an excuse to justify there continued tollerance on this and other forums. You are right if there was not a market they would not be sold and perhaps if this forum and the collecting community was less tollerant of people purhasing and displaying them then the dead would not have to be dug up for their medals.

Just imagine if a Russian TV programme did a series on digging up dead US Soldiers in the Pacific?

National Geographic and Gottlieb did this to make money, that Soviet and German Soldiers are dug up is probably immaterial to making a TV programme

[Simon O.]

Please could you show me evidence to support your statement that most Ground Dug Items come from items dropped or thrown away? Quantifiable evidence not anecdotal?

When I see a ground dug badge with a broken hinge or pin there is a valid case to make that they were broken off in combat and fell to the ground. When you see a ground dug items that have all of the hardware attached why would someone throw it away ? More likely that it was on a soldier when they were buried and dug up.

The reasoning that most of these items come from honourable sources is an excuse to justify there continued tollerance on this and other forums. You are right if there was not a market they would not be sold and perhaps if this forum and the collecting community was less tollerant of people purhasing and displaying them then the dead would not have to be dug up for their medals.

Just imagine if a Russian TV programme did a series on digging up dead US Soldiers in the Pacific?

National Geographic and Gottlieb did this to make money, that Soviet and German Soldiers are dug up is probably immaterial to making a TV programme

Sure, come over and i'll show you. In 15 years of digging i have fortunately never come across human remains and hopefully never will. at the end of the war stuff was dumped in huge quantities. anything with a swastika either had to be de-nazified or gotten rid of. In addition, any position that had to be left i a hurry during fighting will often have a lot of personal items left behind. There is a great display in the narvik war museum of just such a position, as found, in 1979 with all the weapons and equipment and this position was above ground albeit on a remote mountain.
Even dog tags were thrown away or lost. I have found a dozen or so over the years and if you read unit archives you will also find lists reporting the loss of tags.

My point is though that some do come from graves and its because of that i'm against their buying and selling.

[münster]

Sure, come over and i'll show you. In 15 years of digging i have fortunately never come across human remains and hopefully never will. at the end of the war stuff was dumped in huge quantities. anything with a swastika either had to be de-nazified or gotten rid of. In addition, any position that had to be left i a hurry during fighting will often have a lot of personal items left behind. There is a great display in the narvik war museum of just such a position, as found, in 1979 with all the weapons and equipment and this position was above ground albeit on a remote mountain.
Even dog tags were thrown away or lost. I have found a dozen or so over the years and if you read unit archives you will also find lists reporting the loss of tags.

My point is though that some do come from graves and its because of that i'm against their buying and selling.

Dig in any surrender spot , troop round up area in Germany, lots of medals ditched and odds and ends.

[kefru177]

My point is though that some do come from graves and its because of that i'm against their buying and selling.

I agree with you. Without solid provenance all ground dug items should be considered as graved robbed items.

As most the major battles of WW2 were fought on the Eastern Front everything comming out of there 'ground dug' must be assumed to have come from graves unless it can be proven otherwise.

[Jo Rivett]

And this thread?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=676136

[Mil-Archive]

And this thread?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=676136

That must be what they meant when they issued that statement 'everything will be sent to museums'.