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**Gene T** · 02-08-2010, 01:41 PM

Your last few posts have been very revealing, Brad. I've always wondered how the machinegunners up the hill managed to avoid killing their own, given the chaotic scene unfolding below them after the first shots were fired (the ones that injured Early), but Dr. Nolan's artifact distribution maps and your riflemen theory went a long way towards clearing up that mystery for me personally.

It's also quite interesting that it has taken such an extraordinary amount of hard work to flesh out the realities of a single legendary engagement in a four year long war. Stepping farther back into history, how many more war legends could have withstood this level of scrutiny, if these investigative techniques had been applied to their study?

Please keep it coming!

Gene T

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM

Before I get going again I would like to take a moment to respond to Gene T’s comments.

As I said again and again what I am presenting here is my interpretation, which may or may not agree with that of Dr. Nolan or others. But that is the nature of the research Dr. Nolan conducted; objective and transparent. In other words I am allowed to disagree as long as I am presenting a reasonable interpretation based on what we currently know.

Here is why there are differences of opinion: Many people still have the Gary Cooper version of the York story in their mind and if I were to present something a little closer to that version then I may find more people accept it as true. It would be easy for me to agree that the American fired cartridge concentration on the upper slope, less than 50 meters from MG 2 were York’s cartridges that he fired as he charged up the hill to knock out this machinegun. That would agree not only with the 1941 movie version somewhat, but also agree with this excerpt from York’s CMOH citation:

“After his platoon had suffered heavy casualties and 3 other noncommissioned officers had become casualties, Cpl. York assumed command. Fearlessly leading 7 men, he charged with great daring a machinegun nest which was pouring deadly and incessant fire upon his platoon. In this heroic feat the machinegun nest was taken, together with 4 officers and 128 men and several guns.”

One who reads this has the impression York “charged” the machinegun position(s), which are known to have been located on the western facing slope 50 yards away. The 82nd Division History goes on to say:

“Crouching close to the huddle of German prisoners, he engaged in a rapid fire action with the machine gunners and infantrymen on the hillside. The return fire struck just behind him, due to the fact that careful shooting from the hillside was necessary by the Germans to avoid injuring their own men a few feet in front of Corporal York.”

There definitely seems to be some discrepancy between these two documents about whether York “charged” like a Hollywood fool or whether he did what a mountain man should; use cover and concealment in order to be able to get off well aimed shots at an enemy, who up until now, has the advantage.

Unfortunately there are those that call interpreting what these documents really mean “revisionism” and that this is an attempt to discredit SGT York’s achievements. Of course the people who say these things have their own version of what occurred and I recommend that you read that for yourself.

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 03:58 PM

York’s deeds that day have already been scrutinized by the 82nd Division in 1919 and it was determined then that he was deserving of the CMOH, so there is no reason for us to do that again here or ever. What we are interested in is where and how these events actually played out on the ground based on everything we have read in the historical narratives and from what we have learned studying the artifact distribution patterns found at the site.

Initially I wanted to sort of go in order in an organized way to explain MG positions, graves etc etc. But, it is good that Gene T let us know that he has always wondered about the MG vs. riflemen involvement in the fight. So, please send other questions I can direct in the way that helps you better understand or at least answers questions you may have.

Here is a photo of the site. This photo was taken from the west bank of the creek looking east. Just behind where the photographers is standing is the suspected 4-man temporary grave.

Please refer back to Dr. Nolan’s artifact distribution map for exact details, but in summary this illustrates what we found in regards to fired American and German ammunition that would account for the fire from the hillside and American return fire from the ravine.

Attached Files

York vs MGs.001.jpg (225.1 KB, 188 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 03:59 PM

This next slide illustrates the way I see it. It is possible that MG 2 could have fired at the patrol, but only at the patrol members on the west bank of the creek. Dr. Nolan’s contour analysis shows that targets on the east bank would not have been visible to machine gunners laying behind an MG08 or 08/15.

In a way this does make sense because the American casualties, for the most part, were from the patrol’s outer ring west of the creek. These men were covering down on the POWs when they were fired on.

If York was in the vicinity of where I placed him he would have Germans on the hillside (the Bavarians) between him and the MG at the top of the hill – therefore they could not shoot at York without shooting through their own men.

The American accounts of the fight pretty much all agree that the Germans York was fighting were about 25 yards up the hill. That would make sense and if that is the case what about the other concentration of American cartridges further up the slope?

Attached Files

York vs MGs.002.jpg (220.6 KB, 188 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 03:59 PM

If the cartridges on the upper slope were York’s, then this is the way it would look.

But, my question would be how did he charge up this slope? It is very steep and we had a rough time climbing it without Germans firing at us. Additionally you can see of the artifact distribution map that there were a lot of Germans on that slope York would have had to charge through in order to get to this position. It could be argued that all of the Germans on the hillside surrendered and allowed him to pass, but that doe not agree with any historical narratives.

I think I know how these cartridges got there

Attached Files

York vs MGs.003.jpg (222.6 KB, 188 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 05:06 PM

In closing tonight’s discussion I want to share a couple new maps Dr. Nolan generated.

This first map shows the research area. Shaded in pink you see the “Metal Detector Survey Area” and in light blue the “100% Artifact Recovery Area”.

What that means is the area shaded in pink was searched in a random fashion by numerous experienced metal detector operators, each operator using his discretion to search areas more thoroughly should it be thought or felt to contain artifacts of interest. There were two individuals employed specifically for this purpose for two weeks in April. This search methodology had two purposes; first, to locate artifact concentrations that would indicate the presence of soldiers in combat or at rest, crew served weapon positions, possible burials as well as physical features such as trenches, bunkers and so on. The second purpose metal detector survey work is to identify “negative evidence” areas. That is areas where nothing is found to indicate any of the things I just described. In 2009 we were successful in identifying several German positions that help us better understand the German firing into G/38 left flank, Private Wine’s temporary burial location was found in by the detector survey crew and two trenches – old boundary ditches were located, one of which is described by not only the German prisoners, but York and the Saturday Evening Post article. Negative evidence areas were also discovered as you can see on this artifact distribution map.

Note: This map displays ALL of the artifacts found including those that do not have anything to do with this battle like hunting cartridges and a number of French WW II era ammunition that will be discussed later. Initially some of this ammunition was misidentified as WW I ammunition in 2006. As you will see when we discuss this later ALL artifacts must be carefully examined individually before they are entered into the data base.

Attached Files

2006-2009 Distribution.001.jpg (60.7 KB, 186 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 05:08 PM

This is the same map enlarged to show more detail of the blue shaded area known as the 100% Artifact Recovery Area”. In this area the attempt was made by a metal detector operator to cover 100% of the surface area with the search coil of the metal detector and recover all artifacts. This rather large area was divided into smaller search lanes that would be searched by the detector operator. Time permitting; several of the lanes were searched again by another operator and, in some cases, additional artifacts were recovered.
The reality is that there are so many artifacts in the ground it is virtually impossible to recover ALL artifacts. The majority of what is encountered is artillery shell fragmentation. I was responsible for search an approximately 25 meter square search lane and in the first day recovered a number of artifacts including several hundred piece of fragmentation. At that point it was determined to set the metal detector discrimination setting so that the unit would register all non-ferrous targets and only larger ferrous (iron or steel) targets. This greatly improved the efficiency or the search operation. It was noted that certain artifacts like fired German 7.92m projectiles would probably be missed because of the high ferrous metal layering in the projectile’s outer jacket. Fortunately there were enough found to sufficiently demonstrate the target area in the ravine bottom for some of the German soldiers firing from the hillside.

This map also shows the 3 suspected temporary burial locations of the patrol members killed in the fight.

Attached Files

2006-2009 Distribution.002.jpg (75.3 KB, 188 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 05:08 PM

This is another an even closer look at the immediate surroundings of the 1x1 meter unit excavated by the team’s archaeologist at the site where we believe Corporal Savage was buried.

Attached Files

2006-2009 Distribution.003.jpg (50.1 KB, 188 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-08-2010, 05:15 PM

I will leave it here for tonight.

**Johnny R** · 02-08-2010, 06:14 PM

This is all very interesting to see and discussed as far as an interpretation of the data. One question I have on the distribution of finds show in #246 is if the area was plowed and farmed since WWI. I would expect and have seen the same type of artifact distribution in a draw as a result of eroding soils from plowing and if a dam was located there the artifacts would be deposited and buried in silt leading to a concentration in the lower elevations. Do you know if it was plowed, the trees appear to be less than 20 years old on average.

**Johnny R** · 02-08-2010, 06:18 PM

I see in one map the dam is Medieval, I wondered if it was 20th century etc. That answered one quesiton. I am just interested in the plowing if you know.

**Brad Posey** · 02-09-2010, 01:05 AM

The regional director and conservator of Archaeology of the Champagne-Ardennes is the one that informed us about the dam being of medieval date. He is also the one that told us about the numerous charcoal burn pits found throughout the Argonne - more on that later.

The area in the ravine has never been plowed, at least in the last several hundred years. You can clearly see that this wooded area is filed with deciduous (hard wood) trees. You an also see that most of the newer trees are actually growing out of the stumps of older trees. There are plenty of very large stumps, one of which we found a .45 slug embedded in it that had been fired into the tree when it was still alive in 1918.

**Johnny R** · 02-09-2010, 08:26 AM

Thanks, I am a professonal academic archaeologist and have worked on many historic as well as prehistoric sites all over the US and Central America so I find this all very interesting especially the data interpretations.

**Brad Posey** · 02-09-2010, 04:07 PM

Before I go on I want to go ahead and present something I mentioned earlier about post-WW I ammunition being found.

On many of Europe’s battlefield there was often another fight that took place on the same terrain either many years before or after the event you happen to be studying. In this case the action occurred in WW II.

The French regional director of archaeology told us that a lot of WW II artifacts turn up in the Argonne and caches of ammunition like the ones we found are not uncommon. The reason? He informed us that the French retreated through this area after the Battle of Stonne in May 1940 and they attribute these finds to that event.

In 2006 Dr. Nolan’s team found two caches of about 20 French VB grenades near MG Position 1. (The AEF used the French VB grenade with launching tubes designed for their rifles) Dr. Nolan’s team also recovered a number of French 8mm cartridges, both fired and unfired, in several locations throughout the ravine – these were used in the Chauchat Machinegun. Since York’s squad was an automatic squad and Private Percy Beardsley says he carried an “automatic” that day, but did not fire. So all of these 8mm cartridges could not be fully explained until 2009.

On the first day we arrived at our “Gite” in the Fleville last April I took a look at the artifacts Dr. Nolan found in 2006 that were not taken back to Tennessee. It did not take long to identify many of the 8mm cartridges as post war cartridges with head stamp dates in the 1930s.

When we got to the field to start the search one of the missions of the metal detector survey crew was to clean out these caches along the point of the ridge. A large quantity of WW II era French ammunition turned up including French VB high explosive grenades, VB message grenades, grenade fuses, 8mm cartridges, 7.5 mm cartridges, flare cartridges, demolition blocks, blasting caps and both 8mm and 7.5mm blank cartridges.

Smaller groups and single 8mm cartridges, both fired and unfired were discovered in the mouth of the ravine on both sides of the creek.

In 2006 Dr. Nolan found a large cluster of 8mm cartridges within a few meters of where we suspect the 4-man grave was. This group is the only group of unfired 8mm cartridges that turned out to be from the 8 October, 1918 action.

Attached Files

Slide1.jpg (176.0 KB, 171 views)

**Brad Posey** · 02-09-2010, 04:08 PM

Here is a photo of one of the caches of French rifle grenades known as the VB after its inventors: Vivien and Bessières. The VB grenade was used up through WW II. You can also see some of the tin case from demolition blocks.

What is important to note are the VB fuse plug protecting caps. Some are made of aluminum, WW I VB caps were made of steel.

Attached Files

Slide2.jpg (234.1 KB, 172 views)

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