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Helmut Weitze

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Holocaust relic: Dachau french political prisoner uniform

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    #16
    Since I have no expertise in holocause items, I could only trust my common sence and experience... and my friend. In the following months, I should also be able to see a picture of the man in 1945 wearing this uniform, and probably get to talk to the son who is still alive.

    If it can help, here are some close up views. Everything looks old, naturaly used, and exactly how I would expect it to be. Also, all the diferent garments belonging to this man were made in materials of different types and shades, which is also what I would expect to see on authentic sets.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Jean-Loup; 07-20-2007, 03:42 PM.

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      #17
      A faded stamp...
      Attached Files

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        #18
        An other button hole
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          #19
          Just to show you guys what kind of guy my collector friend is: when he first moved after his divorce a couple of years ago, he sold me this Heer tunic for only 100 euros. As you can see, it is all good and untouched. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt any of the details concerning the KL tunic. The price was hardly higher.
          Attached Files

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            #20
            Hello JL,

            You seem to be very convinced that those uniforms are the real deal but please let me go a bit deeper on this topic about KL uniforms for forummembers that perhaps want to buy a KL uniform in the future.

            A KL tunic has been on my wanted list for atleast 15 years; I have seen several on militaria fairs, ebay,...etc. Non of them had solid provenance only stories that couldn't be verified.
            Solid provenance for such a tunic is a picture made in May 1945 of the former inmate wearing the uniform and/or some evidence that the KL serialnumber & insignia's on the tunic matches the person.
            Like I said before you need to be sure you don't buy the former inmates repro uniform or even worse a fake deliberatly made to deceit (like with so many WW2 items), ofcourse also KL uniforms are faked!
            Often the insignia's on those tunic's are the best way to tell if you have an original or a repro :
            - On the repro uniforms the inmates insignia's and serialnumbers are usually very badly made copies of the originals.
            Don't forget that those repro uniforms weren't made to deceit, they just had to look like an original so that the former inmate could wear it with pride on remembrancedays.


            JL, the insignia on your uniform are certainly added after the liberation, no problem; but can you see traces on the tunic of where the original triangel insignia's would have been sewn on?

            Cheers,
            Peter

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              #21
              Hi JL,

              You posted extra images while I was writing my text.
              Don't get me wrong I'am not declaring your uniform fake or repro, you have the tunic in hand and know your friend.
              I just want to give some solid advice for forummembers that want to add such a uniform to there collection in the future.

              Cheers,
              Peter

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                #22
                "Solid provenance for such a tunic is a picture made in May 1945 of the former inmate wearing the uniform and/or some evidence that the KL serialnumber & insignia's on the tunic matches the person."

                Well, that is very well, as such a picture exists, and I should be able to view it in the future. The son of the man is also alive like I said (I plan to do a taped interview), and there is a book abou the holocaust that mentions him. About the number maybe someone here knows how to research it?


                Please guys, I know that this uniform is very hard to authenticate, and that "friends" in the collector world often turn out to be enemies.
                But if you do not see something specificaly wrong about this tunic, dont just assume it is fake because such items are rare. Peter, it is not because an item has no provinence that it is fake; and I believe you said in an earlier post "buy the piece, not the story"; but provinence IS a story.

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                  #23
                  Hi JL,

                  As a former political prisoner he certainly has a dossier kept in an archive.
                  I researched my greatgrandfather who was a political prisoner, believe it or not but the dossiers of Belgian political prisoners are kept in the archives of the ministery of health!
                  Where the French political prisoners dossiers are kept I don't know but it can't be that difficult to find out.
                  You certainly going to need the former inmates birthday and birthplace, try if you can get that information from your friend.
                  Also I would write a letter to KL-Dachau, perhaps they have a list with the former inmates and their serialnumbers.
                  JL, try your best to get as much confirmation & information as you can on that uniform or it is just going to end up like so many uniforms:
                  - it belonged to mister X but you have to believe me because I don't have solid evidence.

                  Cheers & succes,
                  Peter

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                    #24
                    Dont worry Peter, as you may have seen from some of my other threads, it is not one of my habits to let things go undocumented. It will have to wait at least one month though as I am going away for several weeks as of tomorrow.

                    Of interest for this thread, here is a photo taken shortly aftet the liberation of Dachau showing both french flags, and tunics with no insignia at all.
                    The source was http://www.eastrenfrewshire.gov.uk/h...mps_images.htm
                    Attached Files

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                      #25
                      Hello JL,

                      I also checked my reference books and again they confirm what I knew before this thread started:
                      - Their is no standard in KL uniforms!
                      Actually there no standard whatsoever in almost all subject matters concerning the KL system!
                      That is what it make so difficult to tell friend from foe for collectors that are intrested in KL items.

                      Cheers,
                      Peter

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                        #26
                        An other picture showing no badges what so ever. After looking at many pictures, it seems there were many variations in the uniforms, and even many civilian cloths being worn in camps. I wouldnt be suprised if the "french flag" was worn even during the time when the camp was still run by germans. Otherwise I doubt the guy would have written his serial number on it, and used a piece of SS ingnia to make the flag.

                        I am still very confident this uniform is perfectly authentic, and would be glad to get the rest of the set (but that wont happen for a while).

                        Can anybody with actual hands on experience of holocaust items give his opinion? I can provide close ups if required, but only during the next few hours, as I a then going off.
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                          #27
                          Here is a photo I found showing Dutch Foreign Volunteer shields, and the middle one is apparently a "german made version", the same as on my tunic. We all know that Dachau was a major production site for SS cloth items, so the prisonners probably had easy access to the stuff, particularly once the germans left.
                          As far as I am concerned, the pieces of the puzzle all seem to fit very well.
                          Attached Files

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                            #28
                            just my contribution to the thread with some shots I took at a KL over here. Believe these were uniforms from Dachau.





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                              #29
                              Hello,

                              http://museumofworldwarii.com/Images2005/07Inmatelg.gif

                              A link to a collection in the USA that has a good tunic on display (with provenance), this is the type that I have been searching for years.
                              Look at the insignia.

                              Cheers,
                              Peter

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
                                Just to show you guys what kind of guy my collector friend is: when he first moved after his divorce a couple of years ago, he sold me this Heer tunic for only 100 euros. As you can see, it is all good and untouched. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt any of the details concerning the KL tunic. The price was hardly higher.

                                well one of the shoulderstraps doesn't belong on it. But that's no big deal when it comes to removable items like that. Only question is, which one was added?
                                Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.

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