Holocaust relic: Dachau french political prisoner uniform

[Jean-Loup]

I dont now where to post this on the forum... When some people posted similar things on the SS forum, it started a big debate, with some people saying that they would find it disgusting to own such items (of course, owning the uniforms of the SS guards or their Soldbuch is not "disgusting" though ), so anyhow, I am posting it here. I know many people believe that such items shouldnt be owned by private people but should be given to museums. But here is the deal, firstly this was given to a private collector by the familly of the victim: I think they know etter then anybody what to do with this stuff. Secondly, I believe any major museum has several of these rotting away in their reserve, so no thank you for giving these to museums. My personal opinion is that every balanced collection should have an item like this so that we remember what is behind the german stuff we collect. Now, enaugh politics:


This set was given to a local collector friend of mine by the son of a french partisan who was deported to Dachau in 1944. Both the man and his son were arrested, but the son managed to escape during the transit to the camps. The man came back alive, but died shortly afterwards, in 1945, as a consequence of his deprivations while at Dachau I suspect: he was only about 45 years old. There is a picture of him wearing his KL uniform when he came back from the camps, but my friend has it in a box somewhere, and I will only be able to see it at a later date.
The set consists of two tunics, one paire of pants, and one cap. Interestingly, each item is made in different material. Both tunics have some kind of strange badge, (maybe an SS foreign volunteer badge) modified into a french flag. One tunic also has the red triangle for political prisoners, the other does not. I have no idea why the guy had two tunics... The code numbers on both look the same, but one number is difficult to see on one of them.

[Jean-Loup]

Since my friend had a divorce and bought a new house, he sold almost all the large items in his collection, but kept the holocaust uniform. I told him several times to warn me if he ever had to let it go. He decided that since there were two tunics, he would sell me one. So today I managed to buy one of the tunics, for quite a lot of money, but much less then apparent market value.
This is what my friend is keeping (of course, he is keeping the nicer tunic...) Dont be to upset about the group being brocken up: both me and my friend know where the other half of the group is, and live near each other. We arent planing on pawning this stuff off on ebay, or sending it half way around the world. I suspect some day I will manage to get the rest of the set.

[Jean-Loup]

The code number on the pants and one of the tunics. The pants are of thick quality fabric. Both tunics are just thin cheep HBT material.

[Jean-Loup]

This is the badge on the tunic that I managed to buy. Under the piece of sewed on red fabric, the original badge is orange. Does anybody recognise this type of badge?
The last number of the code number is very hard to read, but the rest of the code is the same as on the other tunic and the pants.

[Jean-Loup]

Here is a full view of the tunic I managed to buy.

[Jean-Loup]

Inside. When my friend took out the tunic this morning, he had a little surprise... see next post.

[Jean-Loup]

In a fold at the front of the jacket, my friend felt something hard... On investigation, he found a hidden pocket containing a pencil, and two folded pieces of paper with some king of debries inside. I dont know if the debries represent a souvenir, or is just dirt that got into the paper over the years... Was having a pencil forbiden in the camps?

[Jean-Loup]

Here is a period german document showing the proper way the badges on a KL tunic should look like... Very different from what is visible on these two tunics.

[Chap15]

IMO, the tunics do not look real.
KZ cloth is the same on both sides...this was so that the uniform could not be turned inside out to hide the stripes.

[Santi]

Very interesting thread, Jean.
You always surprise us with your stories and items.
That kind of items should be kept for posterity, and this tunic is in good hands, so i wouldnt worry.
Thanks for showing.

[PaulR]

Here is a period german document showing the proper way the badges on a KL tunic should look like... Very different from what is visible on these two tunics.

Is there a way to get a larger copy of that photo posted? I have never seen one of these before! I would like to be able to read what it says.

REgards
Paul

[WalterB]

Very interesting items! I remember going to the Army Museum in Paris earlier this year and they had a whole section dealing with concentration camps and included some inmate uniforms. Unfortunately, the section was closed and I was unable to see it closely. Perhaps it is open now and you can check to see if the inmate uniforms are similar to the one you have. Very interesting and historic!

[peter u]

Hi JL,

KL-tunic are a very difficult subject matter, actually all KL related subject matters are difficult because their is no real standard as for army uniforms,...etc.
What I write here is just a personal opinion, please don't forget that.
Imo the insignia's are added on the tunics after the liberation.
They look to different from all sorts of original KL inmate uniform insignia that I have seen before.
The Germans certainly wouldn't have allowed inmates to wear national insignia such as the French tricolour.
- Are the tunic's the original examples worn in Dachau?
I don't know, replica's were made after the war for former KL-inmates to be worn on parades and remembrancedays.

Just a general rule:
- Be always very careful when you spend money on KL inmate uniforms, there are much more repro's around then originals and like with all militaria items always buy the object not the story.

Last but not least:
- Not all KL inmates wore stripped uniforms!

Cheers,
Peter

[peter u]

Hi Walter,

Alas comparing a KL tunic's with examples in museums isn't always a good idea, many museums also have the repro uniforms on display.
So you end up comparing one repro with another.
Their are originals on display in museums, most of them are in very worn and fragile condition.


Hello JL,

In most KL's having a pencil was illegal and if it was found by a guard the inmate would have been very harshly punished.
In the later war stages even with capital punishment!


Cheers,
Peter

[Jean-Loup]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Chap and Peter: I am quite sure this tunic is 100% original: that is as the vet came back to France with it in 1945 (he died only months later, so I dont think he would have any commemorative tunic). It is very possible the badges were added on after the liberation of the camp, explaining they are actualy SS foreign volunteer shields (as I understand). It took a while for inmates to be sent back home, and I can very well imagine the guy adding french flags to his tunic so as not to be confused with polish, russians, etc. But seeing that the badge on one tunic is sewn underneath the code number, maybe the guy actualy wore the tunic like this while he was in the KL.
My friend who sold me these is one of the few guys I trust. The items were given to him several years ago, and the only reason he decided to sell one tunic is because I asked him about it several times. I very much doubt that the pencil in the pocket and the old pieces of paper containing some kind of debries were added on by any faker.
But I know, buy the item, not the story. In this case I am very confident the items are good, though I would bow down to a concensus of specialists on the subject.

Paul, I just found that picture on google, I dont have a bigger version of it.

Walter, I will probably be going to that museum in Paris next week, but as Peter points out, there is a big chance that the museum tunics are also fake!