Interesting .................

[François SAEZ]

.............. to see how some documents are rarer and of course more expensive than the badges.

Some examples
WW1(99) & Spanish civil war and Tank badges = documents rarer than the badges
Urkunde mappe for RK rarer (more expensive)than a RK which itself is rarer (more expensive) than a preliminary doc for RK - logic as the urkunde mappe stop to be distributed during the war (42-43?), or only on special occasions.
EK1 more expensive than the doc (regular issue - not SS,U-boot or elite units).
Logic is that some badges were more produced than documents issued

But when we have the same # of awards and documents, like for the honor goblet - what is the logic? Award are more expensive than documents.

Possibly the craft, the metal used the artistic added value .........
There is no question here, only a reflexion to see that docs are the only tracking point between a badge and a man, which drives to the only link between a badge and the war.
Also, a reflexion on the different parameters encountered that make the "scarcity" and the price
ie: an Silver Goblet is rarer (understand more expensive) than his doc, but what if the document is originally signed by HG or Milch - what is the rare, the army para badge or his doc - What is the difference also on dates, locations, signatures? - Many questions you don't have to ask yourself with badges.
That gives an open door to the complexity to give price for docs
Documets (even faked) are unique and give life and sense to a badge.
No, I am not drunk neither under drugs, but the more are think, the more I believe that, for me, docs are more important than badges/medals - exactly like ribbon bars bars "talk" more than medals by themselves.

The quest, at least mine is to find:
Step 1
1 - The badge/medal
2 - The case for the badge/medal
3 - The document for the badge/medal
4 - A Wartime picture showing the badge (you have in your hand) in wear during the war.
Step 2:
Find groupings, which means all the above multiplyed by the # of badges/medals for the same guy + personal items + The uniform(s)+++
To find such grouping is really hard, at least for me, as - maybe you have noticed it - THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING MISSING (a badge/medal, a doc...)

François

[Rick Research]

I don't know about the higher end items, like Ehrenpokals, but for "ordinary" stuff like Iron Crosses, Assault Badges, etc... there are hundreds of thousands/millions of those pieces of metal: but only the DOCUMENT puts a name/unit/place/reason on the award.

To me, a group of award documents, even when nothing more "exotic" than an EK1, is "worth" more than the loose, anonymous badges.

And, of course, dealers/ so-called "collectors" who split up groups should be punished in medieval ways.

Because the story and history is in having as much information as possible.

Comme toujours, nous sommes en accord total.

[Brian R]

To me, a group of award documents, even when nothing more "exotic" than an EK1, is "worth" more than the loose, anonymous badges.

Rick-

I couldn't agree with you more. I think award docs and doc groups are absolutely amazing. They beat the pants off of any single award. In recent months my collecting interests have moved very much in the direction of award documents. I have limited knowledge concerning them and am amazed by how little published information there is available. There seem to be general rules to follow for understanding medals and badges but there doesn't seem to be any guidelines to follow when collecting and interpreting documents.

I look forward to posting more queries regarding docs on this forum as they come about.

Brian

[Stijn David]

badges versus documents, etc ..

Hello,


A good point here , i follow a little the same way as you ( FRancois ) are regarding your steps :

1 ) Badge ( as good possible condition )
2 ) case or award packet
3 ) Award document ( exept for the rarer documents i only buy them in groupings and these are relatively new for me => i have a good friend however who puts me in the right direction , thanks David ( aka Florian Geyer )
4 ) Picture of the badge in question in wear
5 ) Wehrpass or soldbuch with the awards entered

Indeed a grouping of award documents gives a more human story to the cold material ( here in this case the badge ) but i wil always love badges in the first place and knowing what a erson hase to do .

My first love where the Heer awards and im now a little converting towards the Luftwaffe awards , you are absolutely right in saying there is always a piece missing, but thats the human nature, we are always in love with something we currently don't have and thats makes the fun part of collecting .
Im also aware that some items wil be out of reach for ever but hey im not less happy because another person has something thats out of my ( cash ) reach.

Im still not out in a particlular case what is rarer, the award document for the Heer honour roll clasp ( much longer awarded ) or the clasp itself ?

Just my .02 Euro's

Friendly greetings,

[Rick White]

You guys are "preaching to the choir" with me on this issue. I only collect groups that have a lot of depth to them. That means paper FIRST, medals SECOND.

I also want a photo of the receipient. However, I have gotten to the point where I need a photo album or large group of photos to get me interested in the group. Every group in my collection has a photo album with it except for a very few...and most of those I have been able to gather photos from other people (crew members, when it comes to my 8th AF groups), thus creating my own photo album.

With the combination of award docs, photos, SB or WP, and other research, you can put together a wonderful (or not so wonderful) story of the man's military career. That's what it is all about for me.

Yes, these types of groups are MUCH more expensive. However, it is somewhat balanced by the fact that there are FEWER of them out there. Therefore, I am not tempted by about 95% of the militaria that is on the market.


Rick

My Collection/Research Website

[Angel Farré]

I always prefer Soldbuch, Wehrpass and/or citations than medals or uniforms, each piece of paperwork provide a personal portrait of the holder, a wound badge is a reward, but his citation reveals the pain suffered to wear it. With a complete citation group you can trace the soldier career, also with a Soldbuch/Wehrpass, a single Knight Cross is an outstanding piece, but I prefer a simple EK II winner Soldbuch for what this represent, it's the life of the soldier, sometimes he went trought the war without a wound or illness, other times you find poor guys who were wounded 6 or more times or boys killed when they haven't reach the 20. Of course medals and uniforms are highly collectable pieces and I have some, but I always remember when I put together the money to buy a Knight Cross and a friend offer me the Solbuch/Wehrpass combination to a KC, I have no KC in my collection, but I have hours of research and some little misteries solved with the pieces I bought instead. Better we stop saying this or all the collectors start to purchase papers and nothing for us.

Cheers

Angel

[François SAEZ]

Example

We go now for an example:

Pic one is "Al Valor Militar" in silver, which by itself is a nice medal (real silver)



As often, the back of the medal is engraved with the name of the recipient



A close up on the engraving shows that it was awarded to a german name (start to be interesting) - so you check in your books and find that Hans Sehringer was Oblt., pilot in 2.(F)/Aufkl.GR.123 when he receive the RK on 9.12.42



You think that you are lucky today as the medal came with it original case




In fact, you are more lucky than you think, as the doc is also coming with the medal




.... and you even find an original picture of the award ceremony



I tryed to show how you get from a simple medal (nice by itself) to something more concrete, more speaking.

François

PS: thanks Mark M.

[mmiller]

Francois,

My pleasure. But NO THANKS to the U.S. Postal Service! Express Mail my A**!

It seeems that most of the really nice groupings are held onto and are not up for sale. I do agree that there is 'magic' in a nice doc set. Docs with image of the award, or additional artwork (maybe in color) are terrific. Rare docs like the Condor Legion Tank Badge (that I have been looking at) are also alluring. Oh, but the price.

At the risk of being castrated on this thread, I still like my badges best.

MM

[mmiller]

BEWARE: THE MASKED CUCUMBER IS ALIVE AND WELL. WE WILL HAVE TO SEND 'THE THING' TO TAKE CARE OF HIM.

[François SAEZ]

Working now - thanks Magic Seba