SS zivilabzeichen pin: real or fake?

[valsente]

hello guys,
I need your help about this pin that I got froma few days. How about it?
Thanks in advance
Val

[Jo Rivett]

It looks very good indeed, an old fake for sure, but still, a fake IMGHMFO

[tranchant]

hello
i agree with jo, the maker mark is not conform on this item!
best regards
patrick

[Wim Vangossum]

Maker mark in raised relief is always bad in this case.


Regards, Wim

[Jo Rivett]

If i was allowed to guess, i would say made around 1965-1975, by an American maker, who is also guilty of making other very good fake, and fantasy, small badges. If i was also allowed to suggest something, i would suggest that if you showed only an obverse image, it would be very hard to say anything. It`s a good fake indeed. Unfortunately the reverse blows it away, for a few reasons.

[Seiler]

A "Dud" no doubt,thats for sure.
Seiler

[Jo Rivett]

A "Dud" no doubt,thats for sure.
Seiler

Ja my friend, a dud, but i fear the point is being lost. This is a very good fake, in fact, i would say that this is the perfect fake.

Let me ask the forum this. If i was to show this obverse, together with an ORIGINAL obverse from Gahr, or Hoffstätter.... who would say that this obverse is fake??? N o b o d y !

Could this not be a case of a possible original obverse die together with a post war fake die?

[Matthew]

Ja my friend, a dud, but i fear the point is being lost. This is a very good fake, in fact, i would say that this is the perfect fake.

Let me ask the forum this. If i was to show this obverse, together with an ORIGINAL obverse from Gahr, or Hoffstätter.... who would say that this obverse is fake??? N o b o d y !

Could this not be a case of a possible original obverse die together with a post war fake die?

It's a case of a fake obverse and a fake reverse.
Nowhere near perfect.

cheers

Matt

[J. Wraith]

Ja my friend, a dud, but i fear the point is being lost. This is a very good fake, in fact, i would say that this is the perfect fake.

Let me ask the forum this. If i was to show this obverse, together with an ORIGINAL obverse from Gahr, or Hoffstätter. who would say that this obverse is fake? N o b o d y !

Not exactly, the Gahr can be spotted with an open eye on the obverse alone whether it sits next to another pin or if on a solo flight, they are just different. The raised Hoffstatters are not that easy and may require a flip over and I flipped about 8 of them in Louisville, keep in mind your not using camera magnification as shown above which might be good for a bookworm but most often its eyeball without reference when you need to make a call.

You also have variables in manufacturing on the original Hoff's which is why I often have to flip them over and why the magnified photos are not always helpful on an obverse. Knurled pins mean dick contrary to popular belief and depending on the rear back plate condition on the raised and impressed pieces you may find yourself running your fingers or a loop over the lettering. So if your walking an aisle the Gahr stands out, and without magnified pics and study you will be flipping these raised letter pieces over even if its just for confirmation. Their close, but if you want to break them down its not that hard.

[Jo Rivett]

Val,

During the past 12 months, since you started this thread, this pin has obviously changed hands, as it was sent to me by member Gary Symonds, at the end of 2014 to, as he requested, "Inspect under the microscope for signs of micro-patina"

I naturally did not do what he requested
Sounds bad, but it isnt. The micro-patina is the very last aspect that i would look at first. So although i naturally did inspect it, and take many microscopy images of it, i was not inspecting what he wanted me to, simply because it never passed the first test (I have many that i do before i even consider any form of patina)

The problem is not that it failed the tests, the problem is that someone has willfully manipulated this stickpin over the past 12 months.

Someone has tried their best to add patina, by rubbing all the silver wash off the obverse, and rubbing patches of the silver wash off the reverse.
Someone has also tapped and sanded the rim, and the obverse.

Before i host images, i would like to know if this badge went from you to Gary S. or through another party first.

[valsente]

Hi Jo,
I bought this item from an American collector just one year ago and posted it on the WAF. After having got your opinion I sent it back to the seller who, very honestly, refunded me in full. After that I don't know which way the pin took.
Val

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Jo,
I bought this item from an American collector just one year ago and posted it on the WAF. After having got your opinion I sent it back to the seller who, very honestly, refunded me in full. After that I don't know which way the pin took.
Val

OK, thanks. Well somewhere in between that and December, someone rubbed all the silver wash off the obverse, and parts on the reverse as well. The edges were sanded and tapped to dent them and break a bit of enamel. In other words to try and add patina and make it look "not so old"

Maybe Gary can shed some light?

Here is what i received it looking like

[Jo Rivett]

In the meantime, while we work out who is fooling about here, here is another image. The same Hoffstätter fake, next to a fake stamped J.F.S.

Both badges were stamped under the identical obverse die, and marked by the same tooling, with Boris-the-animal-box-ges.gesch.

As already said, the trained eye can spot a fake SS 13 mm pin from quite a distance - at a pace - but for this, you`d really need to flip it over.

[Gary Symonds]

OK, thanks. Well somewhere in between that and December, someone rubbed all the silver wash off the obverse, and parts on the reverse as well. The edges were sanded and tapped to dent them and break a bit of enamel. In other words to try and add patina and make it look "not so old"

Maybe Gary can shed some light?

Here is what i received it looking like

I purchased this SS stickpin at the West Coast Collectors Show in Pomona, California in May 2014. Val posted the stickpin for WAF review in March 2014, sent it back for a refund, which was paid, and obviously the seller brought it to the show and sold it to me. In fact, I showed it to Bob Hritz who had a table at the show, for his opinion.

Very quick timing. Hopefully, this seller will be at the 2015 show in May, and I will produce these posts for his opinion.

[Jo Rivett]

Let`s hope you can get your money back Gary.

Said it before i`ll say it again, beware of old men with steel wool and small badges, that combo`s a no-no.