Another S-boat. Schwerin

[Tiger 1]

Since we're looking at S-boats hete's another one.

[Norm F]

Hi Tony,

I've been pondering the badge you posted and I have to admit it disturbs me. On first and second glance it looks very much like a worn original but on closer scrutiny there are subtle problems with some details in the ship cabin and eagle, the finish, the margins (both internal and external) and the maker mark. The traditional die flaw on the reverse is absent and the hardware, although very close, also shows subtle differences.

Here's a comparison of just one area of this badge to three originals. You can see the differences in texture and outline and the top hook. It lacks the characteristic markings on the margins from Schwerin's trimming stamp for the internal cutouts.

In the end, I'm of the opinion that this is the most dangerous copy I've seen to date. I'd be interested to hear what Mike Kenny and others say as well.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Tiger 1]

I appreciate your candor Norm. Since you bring up the copy possibility, my question to you is....when have this type of copy appeared?

I ask in an effort to find the truth. Thanks.

Tony

[Norm F]

I appreciate your candor Norm. Since you bring up the copy possibility, my question to you is....when have this type of copy appeared?

Hi Tony,

That's a very good question. Is there any story behind the one you showed?

I can only make observations on the postings in WAF in the last 10 years. It seems to me at least in the last 10 years we're seeing an evolution in the sophistication of Schwerin S-Boat fakes.

Look at this posting from the late Bill Stump of a fake in 2003 and then the improved version posted in 2006 by Mike Smith. Perhaps the one you posted represents a later, more sophisticated version in the this evolution? But we really need the perspective of one of the long-time collectors like Mike Kenny and Jody.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

At least in the 2003 and 2006 postings there were obvious differences in the maker mark but the one you posted at the top of the thread is the best rendition we've seen yet. Having said that when you compare to originals you see small differences in the "B" and the "6", suggesting some slight distortion in the casting.

[Martin W]

I have no idea as to the time this badge was produced ?

All i can say is that it is not an original tombak Schwerin S-Boot badge IMO.

Norm has posted the faults above,the maker mark comparisons are very convincing, and i do agree with him that this is a "dangerous copy".



Regards,Martin.

[BubbaZ]

I agree it is very well made fake. Also the best I have seen so far.
Cheers,
Hubert

[John R.]

This badge appears to be an excellent fake designed to fool collectors at shows and on the internet.

If the faker had made just one or two small changes to the fake after production, we might have had far more problem with this one.

It means we must be very careful with this badge in the future since such simple modifications might allow it to slip by.

John

[greg1878]

Very dangerous fake, well spotted
Best - Greg

[amiklic1]

Great job Norm. I am just looking for the one for my collection, and apart from the fact that I will, for sure, post it here before I agree on purchase, I just appreciate all these facts presented here.

As said, it's intention is to be sold to less knowledgeable collectors but also on the shows. That's the reason why I haven't bought any badge on last SOS.
I do not dare to do it without the reference material and detailed comparison with approved originals.

[Jelle M.]

Norm, i'm impressed by the way you make your opinion clear.
Keep up the good work

[JAndrew]

Just an FYI, I picked up two of these at a show in Virginia in 2000 or 2001 from a guy that mainly sells repros to reenactors. He probobly had 10 or 12 of them and at the time and i thought they were darn nice copies. I use mine to display on a uniform and the other on the base for an s boat model. He also had some destroyers and HSF that looked a step up from cave creek fakes and all were Schwerin marked. But I will also say that in hand it is not such a fooler.
JAndrew

[Norm F]

Hi JAndrew,

Could you please post your examples in this thread for reference? It would be helpful to see if there's any variance between them.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Tiger 1]

Gentleman!

I was informed thst my s-boat badge shown here has been listed in the fakes thread.

Did anyone bother to ask me ? No.

Did anyone bother to LEARN the history of this badge before castigating it? No.

I heard this and that about this badge being the latest and most dangerous fake.

Unfortunately the xspurts cried FAKE and the village chumoleons chanted in kind.

Now you might say old Tony is getting senile and doesn't see the obvious. Perhaps do and perhaps not.

I've been thru this on this forum once before. It was about the obvious fake dotted date DK iG. The then xspurts cried foul and evil. The mob ran wild and inpuned my knowkedge of when and where and thus deemed the piece forever FAKE.

One problem with jumping to such xspurt conclussions. Can you guess?

The dotted date DKiG turned out to be righteous ala Jason Burmeister's find of a mint cased in the original cellophane example from the Klessheim horde years later. :-0

Oops....

So, now that you know some of my background here I'll clue you in on the rest if the facts as I know them about this "latest, most dangerous fake s-boat badge".

I originally bought this badge in the early 1980's. It came second hand to me from a local vet in the Chicago area.
I sold the badge in 1991 to buy some Lithuanian items after the fall of the iron curtain. I repurchased this badge from this collectors estate after his death in 2005. I have owned this badge since.

So much for being recent

I was asked by someone well respected here to measure and weigh this badge as he had some doubts. I have not gotten around to doing that yet. But ut seems the conviction is in anyway.

So you now know the rest if the story to this " most recent dangerous fake".

Often times folks ask why old timers or high end collectors don't post on forums. It's because if sometimes well intentioned but often times self righteous xourts jump to prenature conclussions before knowing all the facts if a case.

I can accept if an item is PROVEN to be not true but to do so before all is known is just pure BS.

All the best!

Tony

In collecto flagrante since 1966.


P.S.Please remove it from the fakes thread til there is no doubt. Thank you.

[Norm F]

Hi Tony,

Allow me to apologize to you formally for this misunderstanding.

From the postings to date, I was not aware of a difference in opinion and based upon the appearance of a consensus I placed the images in the fakes database. Based upon your passionate response I will now request that they be withdrawn.

Please note that under most circumstances, I do not consider it necessary to request permission to repost photos from one part of this forum to another , since this is all WAF and any photo posted here should be considered already distributed to all members. However, given that you do not at this time agree that it is a reproduction, I will certainly ask that your photos be removed from that context.

I value your experience as a longtime collector and your input in this forum. If you can provide some other data to suppport a claim of authenticity for this badge then this is the place to post it. For now, it remains suspect I'm afraid.

Best regards,
---Norm