Saw fish badge on estand

[JAndrew]

Does anyone have an opinion they could share about the K-verband badge on estand? I always thought these were on a wool backing but I also understand that there may have been more than one manufacturer of these badges. Any thoughts?
Regards,
JAndrew

[Eric JB]

That one looks a bit strange to me, concerning the backing - not as the ones known as the official versions.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[pantherv]

....

That one looks a bit strange to me, concerning the backing - not as the ones known as the official versions.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

Agreed..Never seen this backing before.

[Ludwig]

I have never seen that backing, but the sawfish and rope look OK.

[AndyC]

I have never seen that backing, but the sawfish and rope look OK.

I,ll agree i have never seen that before but as Ludwig says the stiching looks good


Andy

[JAndrew]

Thank you all for the replies. Yes, the stitching looks good and that is what made me ask about it. It seems to have the rope flaw and the stitch direction and details of fins and swords looks good. But I have never seen such a backing on any KM badge that I can think of and I have not seen the combination of gold thread and black thread as on this one from the reverse. I don't know enough about these to come out and say this is an out and out fake but I also don't feel very comfortable with it either.

I'll pass on it but with my luck some time in the next year someone will turn up a uniform from a vet with this very style of badge sewn on it!

All the best,
JAndrew

[Patrick W]

thats an original badge IMO, stitching pattern is correct- sometimes the width of the rope etc is thinner or wider. The black bobbin thread on the reverse is unsual but all sorts of colours can be found on original heer, luft and ss eagles

[Norm F]

Well, before the photos of the badge in question get lost, here they are...

[Norm F]

...But I have never seen such a backing on any KM badge that I can think of ...

Hi JAndrew,

Admittedly no provenance but... (by coincidence also with glue on the back from an album?)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

same material but in white

[Norm F]

The black bobbin thread on the reverse is unsual but all sorts of colours can be found on original heer, luft and ss eagles

Hi Patrick,

That's an interesting point. Can you show other examples of black bobbin thread used on machine embroidered (not woven) patches?

Best regards,
---Norm

[JAndrew]

Norm,
Interesting badge. I would love to put it under a UV light. I am not too impressed with the quality of manufacture of this badge compared to the one in white canvas but I do know there was a lot of variation. But to look at the cross and how it lines up with the white field edges, that it is sewn through the white backing cloth and not covered by the backing cloth as on the white one and the white edge stitching which is uneven and goes around more than once v. the nice even, once around edge stitch on the white one it makes me wonder how the blue one passed muster. I'm not trying to start an arguement or be disrespectful to someone that knows much more about KM items than I do, just making observations.
Respectfully,
JAndrew

[Norm F]

Norm,
I'm not trying to start an argument or be disrespectful to someone that knows much more about KM items than I do, just making observations.
Respectfully,
JAndrew

No disrespect there whatsoever. Makes perfect sense to be critical of cloth items without provenance. It's still an evolving field of study with the gradual accrual of collective observations based upon period photos, badge construction and tales of provenance. All theories need to be tested and debates have to supported with the posting of evidence. I would hope any responsible collector rather than be insulted by such questions would present their evidence to benefit of our collective understanding.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I am not too impressed with the quality of manufacture of this badge compared to the one in white canvas but I do know there was a lot of variation. But to look at the cross and how it lines up with the white field edges, that it is sewn through the white backing cloth and not covered by the backing cloth as on the white one and the white edge stitching which is uneven and goes around more than once v. the nice even, once around edge stitch on the white one it makes me wonder how the blue one passed muster.

Hi Jandrew,

I agree the edging is a bit sloppy on the blue Admiral's staff patch, but comparing it to the white one is a bit of apples and oranges since the white one would presumably be a wartime machine embroidered item while the blue one presumably an early hand-embroidered patch. Not saying that justifies the sloppiness, just that we would expect two different constructions.

Really I was just trying to show the use of the ribbed cloth as a backing instead of wool. Having said that, the ribbed cloth would be for the everyday work shirt, and is it reasonable to expect that a hard-earned Kleinkampfmittel award would be worn on a work shirt in the same manner as a basic insignia patch was?

Best regards,
---Norm

[JAndrew]

Norm,
Good points, especially about wearing a hard earned award. If I had to do what they went through to earn that little cloth circle I would have tattooed it on my arm too.
JAndrew