S-Boat badge... opinions?

[partisan]

Hi,
I'd like to know your opinions about this badge...





Thanks

Partisan

[Norm F]

Hi partisan,

It's a "copy of a copy", unfortunately. This appears to be a cast replica of a post-war zinc S&L S-Boat badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[AndyC]

Nothing right here
Bad cast fake of a s-boot badge


Best

Andy

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello,

Yes, that one is a crude fake for sure. And, from the looks of it, I would say that it is made of lead or some other very soft metal.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

It's a "copy of a copy", unfortunately. This appears to be a cast replica of a post-war zinc S&L S-Boat badge.

Hello Norm,

Are all S-boat Badges with the small 'o' marking considered to be postwar production by S&L?

Best regards,
Tom

[Norm F]

Hello Norm,

Are all S-boat Badges with the small 'o' marking considered to be postwar production by S&L?

Best regards,
Tom

Hi Tom,

Well, there's been much discussion and debate back and forth on that topic over the years, and personally I tend towards what Gordon's being saying for some time now, that they are indeed likely post-war production from the 1960's or early 70's. Having said that, even without the "o" mark some are clearly post-war assembled. For this badge, as with many S&L products we have a population of badges that includes wartime production, post-war assembly from leftovers and post-war production, and the difficulty as always is defining the groups.

The "o" mark is a prominent feature on a wide variety of S&L '57 production products -- moreso on "early" (1960-) as opposed to "very early" (1957-1959) products. It's also present on some obvious post-war swastika-bearing products (like the 1944 wound badge) and not present on any verified wartime S&L product. (Sometimes people mistakenly refer to the Friedrich Orth "o" stamp as an example of wartime "o"s but that mark is stamped in with a punch rather than a raised mark like S&L's.

Gordon has often repeated that a plethora of these "o"-marked S-boats turned up in England in the early 1970's at cheap prices, some of which were spuriously marked "L12" by dealers.

However, we do know from original correspondence that S&L ordered S-boat tooling from Wissmann in December, 1941 and so likely received dies in early 1942.

So personally my guideline is:
1) "o"-mark = post-war production
2) no "o"-mark but Frankenstein hardware or spurious L markings = post-war assembly
3) no "o"-mark but the S&L "57-scrape" on the pin = post-war assembly
4) good production, no "o"-mark", accepted S&L wartime hardware = "wartime compatible" (like Souval)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

I agree with what has been said about the badge which started this thread and with almost all the other comments as well.

The raised "O", however, as Jody and I found when we wrote the article on S-Boat badges, was occasionally used during wartime as a "worker convenience" mark (according to Carl Poellath) to indicate positioning for components, and to tell, during assembly, what went up and what went down, or what was obverse and what was reverse, on parts which might be confusing for a worker. It is found on such disparate products as the reverse of some zipper mechanisms on Luftwaffe flight gear and on the inside (where you would never see it) on parts of some German Crosses (this latter information comes from Dietrich), and comes in different sizes.

That said, it does appear that this mark shows up most frequently on S&L products, and especially its postwar products (as Norm indicated). There are, however, some flight clasps which are believed to be authentic late war pieces from S&L, which use the mark (in a larger form than appears on the S-Boats).

S&L almost certainly made the 1st pattern S-Boat during the war, but Norm and Gordon are exactly correct that pieces with the small "O" and diverse other "L" markings appeared in the 60's and 70's, so extreme caution is necessary when considering this type.

[Tom Yanacek]

4) good production, no "o"-mark", accepted S&L wartime hardware = "wartime compatible" (like Souval)

Hello Norm and Leroy,

Thank you for the detailed and very interesting responses.

Norm: Do you have an example (or pictures) of what you consider a "good production-wartime compatible" S&L?

Thank you & best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

That said, it does appear that this mark shows up most frequently on S&L products, and especially its postwar products (as Norm indicated). There are, however, some flight clasps which are believed to be authentic late war pieces from S&L, which use the mark (in a larger form than appears on the S-Boats).

I owned this example (posted below) for a very long time. But, of couse, not long enough to say it is wartime production. (Well... maybe Vietnam wartime production.)

So, based on all information & knowledge to this point, we can now assume that any S-boat Badge bearing the relief 'o' marking is postwar S&L production at best?

Leroy: IMO, though, the raised 'o' marking that we see on these suspect S-boat Badges is no smaller than what we see on Luftwaffe Flight Clasps, still thought (at least for right now) to be original.

Best regards,
Tom

PS: I always thought this badge to be good because it was featured in Angolia. I suppose I shouldn't go there, though, because I made other mistakes in the hobby because of that book. (It is still a great book, though, despite its errors.)

[Tom Yanacek]

reverse:

[Leroy]

Tom - There are different sizes of the "O" and I have seen some that are larger than others on S&L products (especially on postwar Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords) when held side by side. The "O" on this piece may indeed match the size of the one on some clasps, but not all.

I don't think you can automatically assume that the "O" mark is a definite sign of postwar manufacture, but it is something to alert a person to look closer at a piece.

[Tom Yanacek]

Thanks, Leroy!

Very tricky, these S&Ls!

Best regards,
Tom

[Leroy]

Very tricky, indeed, but usually the way they are put together will tell the story.

[Norm F]

...
Norm: Do you have an example (or pictures) of what you consider a "good production-wartime compatible" S&L?

Hi Tom,

I'm afraid I do believe your example with the "o" mark is post-war (my opinion).

But I'm interested now in looking into the flight clasps with the "o" mark. I'll search around a bit.

Regarding examples of "wartime compatible" S&L S-boats, our best guess is examples like this one from Weitze with S&L's so-call "Juncker-like setup". It may be the same setup that's seen on the badge on the Lüdenscheid sample board (attached below), a piece which presumably was either leftover stock or immediate post-war assembly.

True wartime S&L S-boats are probably quite rare when you consider that S&L received their tooling in 1942 and the true market for them existed for only 1 year before the 2nd pattern was introduced - a line that S&L never pursued.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Great photos, Norm! Here's one JohnT had: