Marine Frontspange

[BubbaZ]

Gents,
I would very much appreciate your opinion on enclosed hollowback Naval Clasp. Has anybody ever encountered such variation? And is there any chance it is war time? I personally consider it to be postwar.
I know that best majority of these badges are postwar and examples that had even small chance to be wartime were always cast solid pieces.
Thanks in advance for your replies!
Hubert

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Hubert,

I would tend to agree with you that this one is likely a post-war variety. The obverse details are very poor, even for this type of badge which always has poor details. This one seems to have the poorest detailing I have ever seen. The drill marks are also quite rough, not something I would expect to see with an original IMO.

Tom

[BubbaZ]

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comment, it confirms my reservations.
This Clasp is not the one for my collection.
Cheers,
Hubert

[LHR1]

Gentlemen,
Although you raise some valid concerns, I wouldn't dismiss this one so quickly. It greatly resembles the most common type of April/May '45-vintage Frontspange, which was fabricated in larger quantities by the machine shops aboard the KM's remaining larger surface units in the Baltic (notably Prinz Eugen). The stamped sheet-brass "shell" was filled with lead solder, in which the attachment needle - sometimes just a large safety pin - was embedded. The obverse details on this type are never particularly sharp and the finishing quality is mediocre at best. If you do a search, you'll find a number of these pieces discussed. Recently, a documents and awards grouping including just this type of badge, bartered for aboard Prinz Eugen , was presented in the KM awards forum.

[BubbaZ]

Hi Carsten,
Thanks for your comment! Does it mean that this clasp still has a chance to be wartime as it just lacks its inner lead solder?
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Few examples to illustrate what Carsten has said.
1)

[BubbaZ]

2)

[BubbaZ]

3) this one has different obverse design.

[BubbaZ]

4) and 5) also different designs

[BubbaZ]

6) this one is strange, totally different type than first ones.

[BubbaZ]

7) similiar concept to previous one.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I admittedly don't follow these much at all, but every single one of these posted here looks like they could be easily made in someone's backyard with simple tools and moulds. So without forensically testing the metals to see if they could be dated somehow with certainty, how on earth would anyone be able to tell if one of these were made 65 years ago, or a week ago?? With the level of fakery we see with Staegemeir and other good forgers, it doesn't appear that these would be hard to reproduce at all. How can you tell the good from the bad?

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi guys,

I admittedly don't follow these much at all, but every single one of these posted here looks like they could be easily made in someone's backyard with simple tools and moulds. So without forensically testing the metals to see if they could be dated somehow with certainty, how on earth would anyone be able to tell if one of these were made 65 years ago, or a week ago?? With the level of fakery we see with Staegemeir and other good forgers, it doesn't appear that these would be hard to reproduce at all. How can you tell the good from the bad?

Tom

Hi Tom,

I totally agree. Even if the number of "orignal" ship-made clasps in late war and early post-war by Navy personnel was relatively high, for the collector there are only two types:

1) those accompanied by iron-clad provenance and a documented chain of ownership - rare and valuable
2) those without documented provenance - common and virtually value-less aside from what a gullible collector may pay

By necessity, "real" clasps of unknown provenance must be thrown in the second pile, unless there is some type of high tech laboratory method of detection forthcoming.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

1) those accompanied by iron-clad provenance and a documented chain of ownership - rare and valuable

Hi Norm,

Even with this, I would have a hard time shelling out cash for such a badge due to its very crude construction. At least with a PAB or Minesweeper badge, it is somewhat difficult to produce for a regular person due to the immense tooling and pressure needed to make such an award. But with these frontspanges, it seems the cruder they appear, the better! This crudeness just invites deceit from spurious dealers and crooks IMO. I just don't see how anyone could feel comfortable adding such a badge to their collection without having constant, lingering doubt.

Tom

[Mike Kenny]

I guess that's where experience and gut feeling come into it.

I took me quite a while to find one that "spoke" to me. It had documentation but no direct provenance. Then again, very few TR items are obtained with bulletproof provenance. A collector may get something straight from a veteran, but it's up to the next collector to believe that story or not!

Regards
Mike

PS: Some of the examples in this thread I would not touch with a barge pole but others I could live with if the price was right.