LDO & P.numbers

[tinmantis]

Hi all
I'm not up on the details regarding the marking of awards

can someone tell me:
what exactly are the differences between an LDO number, and a P number?
and
what month were they handed out?

regards
jon

[streptile]

Hi Jon,

Here is a short version:

At first, no numbering system existed. By July 1940, it had become clear that some supervision and, most importantly, quality control was required. The LdO was set up to govern and monitor the quality of awards that were available for private purchase. Companies interested in selling to the private market had to get a license to do so, and meet quality guidelines. In March 1941, licensed firms were given a number, starting with L/10 (Deschler). This number, called the LdO number, had to be stamped into any award made for private purchase. In theory anyway, no one was permitted to sell any award without an LdO license, and without a number. No LdO numbers below L/10 exist.

It seems the idea caught on, and soon the PKz, the governing body for awarded decorations (not purchased) began their own numbering system. Theirs were just simple numbers (no L/). Around the middle/end of 1942, all awarded EKs, Spangen, etc., began carrying a PKz number (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). There is no correlation between a company's LdO number, and their PKz number ("21" is totally different from "L/21" for example).

So any original award marked with a simple number is an awarded piece. Anything with an L/ number was bought from a store as a replacement or a second piece. Anything unmarked is either awarded before mid-1942, or bought before March 1941, or an anomaly. There are known exceptions to all these rules (e.g., L/12 RKs).

All of this information is lifted straight out of George Stimson and Dietrich Maerz's excellent book, The Iron Cross 1. Class.




.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Jon,

the LDO-number was a number assigned by the LDO to approved suppliers. However, the actual approval of the supplier was done by the Präsidialkanzlei. The LDO supervised ONLY the manufacturing and supply to the private retail sector.

These numbers were introduced after March 1, 1941 and they were introduced earlier than the PKZ numbers.

In general it can be said that awards and badges bearing an LDO number are private purchases. However, there are two huge exceptions: the Knights Cross (and higher) and the German Cross. In October of 1941 it was decided that no private purchases for these two orders are allowed anymore and all retail shops had to send their stock (less one or two display pieces) to the PKZ. That is why we have a lot of L/12 Knights Crosses (and some L/15 and some L/52) which are clearly award pieces. The same applies to the German Cross, but there are only a very few L/52 around. This circumstance added a lot of confusion to the collectors which thought the L/ ... pieces are "jeweler's copies", something which does not exist in the Third Reich at all. It is - in general - an invention of some shady people ....

It is not yet known when the PKZ numbers were introduced. Known is only that it was after the LDO numbers, most likely mid to late 1942.

From that point on, award pieces were marked by the supplier with the assigned PKZ number since they went through the PKZ procurement system and the PKZ accepted only medals with such a number. However, the PKZ was by far not responsible for all badges of the Third Reich (but for the orders it was). So the rule - PKZ number= official award/ LDO-number private purchase - is good for the Order of the Iron Cross, The Order of the German Cross, the Order of the War Merit Cross and the Eagle Order and such. It is not necessarily true for Luftwaffe and Navy proficiency badges (which were no awards in the sense of an order anyway). Most of the time these are not marked with an PKZ or LDO number anyway. However, I think one can say that a Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine badge with an LDO-number was a private purchase. One without a marking could be both.

This is still a subject which requires more intense studying of the German original documents, something that I am constantly doing (togehter with some other German researchers).

I hope I have added to the confusion ...

Dietrich

[tinmantis]

thanks so much for your time gentlemen

so, there should be no diference whatsoever between an EK marked with PKZ number, and one marked with their LDO number (both from the same manufacturer) correct?

and
why were some manuacturers 'awarded' a PKZ number, and some not?
were they of higher quality?

Could their PKZ number be revoked, and their LDO not?

Who marked an award with a number? If all parts of an EK1 were 'bought in' and assembled by say L/11, it would be marked L/11, correct?
If L/11 'bought in' a few pre-assembled/finished EK1s from L/18, they would mark them L/11. Or would they be already marked L/18?
I think what I mean is: does L/11 mean L/11 sold it, not neccessarily manufactured it?
and
if such a situation happened, could L/11 still move these on marked with their PKZ number to the PKZ, even if they are fully L/18?

sorry to add even more confusion!
regards
jon

[Dietrich Maerz]

So, there should be no diference whatsoever between an EK marked with PKZ number, and one marked with their LDO number (both from the same manufacturer) correct?

Yes.

why were some manuacturers 'awarded' a PKZ number, and some not?
were they of higher quality?

It was a process one had to go through. I have paperwork that shows the applicant needed to have the quality, the right location, the right party membership, ...

Could their PKZ number be revoked, and their LDO not?

We know of one case where the LDO number was revoked (L/15 Schickle) and one case were the complete license to produce was revoked (no LDO or PKZ number was asigned, yet): Petz & Lorenz.

Who marked an award with a number? If all parts of an EK1 were 'bought in' and assembled by say L/11, it would be marked L/11, correct?

It was always the final producer. There were no sub-supllier who had an LDO number. However, this leads to confusion in certain circle where the pin system is the origin of all makers. There are post-war product with L 15 (not L/15) and they are stubbornly assigned to either Souval or Orth. The sad truth is that these pins were used in connection with other left-over parts to produces these clones. Post war. But as it is always the case: the people who have it, swear they are "good". They are not!

If L/11 'bought in' a few pre-assembled/finished EK1s from L/18, they would mark them L/11. Or would they be already marked L/18?

Per regulations they would needed to be marked L/11. However, there are cases of double marking which could be interchange or bought stock or just plain fakes.

I think what I mean is: does L/11 mean L/11 sold it, not neccessarily manufactured it?

Basically yes!

if such a situation happened, could L/11 still move these on marked with their PKZ number to the PKZ, even if they are fully L/18?

Nothing with an L/.. number went to the PKZ, only such with a PKZ number. However, such pieces could very well go to the private retail market

Dietrich

[tinmantis]

thanks again

is it the case that almost all manufacturers were given a PKZ number
but not all were licensed by the LDO

and to 'buy in' leftover stock from a non-LDO company, and mark them with your PKZ number would be OK, but to mark them with your LDO number would be risking your LDO license (if they found out)

so the LDO were more strict than the PKZ
the PKZ wanted to fill orders, and the LDO wanted to maintain quality, correct?

would the PKZ pay more for your EKs than selling them on the private market?
regards
jon

[Dietrich Maerz]

is it the case that almost all manufacturers were given a PKZ number
but not all were licensed by the LDO

The PKZ needed a lot more suppliers than the private market. I have documents regarding the wound badge and the KVK that shows the magnitude of the supply numbers. One or tow, even 50 companies could not fulfill the demand. And every supplier to the PKZ got a PKZ number.

and to 'buy in' leftover stock from a non-LDO company, and mark them with your PKZ number would be OK, but to mark them with your LDO number would be risking your LDO license (if they found out)

In both cases there is the same risk. The LDO revokes the number and with it the license to supply the private retail market, the PKZ would not pay for the order and would not order again from you if the quality doesn't improve.

so the LDO were more strict than the PKZ

In both cases the deciding factor was the PKZ (Dr. Doehle), the LDO was just a supervising institution.

the PKZ wanted to fill orders, and the LDO wanted to maintain quality, correct?

No, the PKZ ordered for actual awarding, the LDO supervised the private retail market. Maintaining of quality was in the final analysis always the PKZ, the LDO was a subordinate of the PKZ for the private retail market only.

would the PKZ pay more for your EKs than selling them on the private market?

There exist price lists for the retail market. The pricing was regulated by the LDO. The PKZ had its own pricing strategy and paid less (due to a lot higher quantities)
regards

Dietrich

[andrewb]

Jon, thanks for the great questions.

Dietrich and Trevor, thanks for the detailed answers.

Although I have the book `The Iron Cross 1st Class` there were still Q & A´s that I couldn´t get my head around. This thread has explained them perfectly.


Regards,
AB.

[tinmantis]

yes, thanks for very informative answers

more questions though!
what happened from Sept '39 until mid '42 when the PKZ took charge?
who bought the awards, from who? how did they get to the soldiers?
or was it all private purchase?
regards
jon

[Dietrich Maerz]

what happened from Sept '39 until mid '42 when the PKZ took charge?
who bought the awards, from who? how did they get to the soldiers?

For orders it was always the responsibility of the PKZ. And for other badges such as the Heer badges and the Wound Badges. The Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe proficiency badges (since they were NO awards in the sense of the Law about state orders and awards) were handled by the Marine and Luftwaffe themselves.
So the Präsidialkanzlei bought what they needed and send it out to the corresponding units. The burocratic process behind it is described in the EK1 book.

or was it all private purchase?

Absolutely not! Every order, medal and proficiency badge was provided by the state at no cost together with an award document. In the beginning, this award document allowed the recipient to buy as much replacement pieces as he wanted to on the private market. From October 1941 on this was no longer possible for the RK and higher and the DK. All other awards could be bought privately with proof of ownership (officers were exempted since the honor system prevented fraud).

Dietrich

[Thomas Durante]

Great thread guys, very informative. Even though I think I have a good handle on the LDO and the PK, its always good to read it again and again since it is a bit confusing! And I learn something new each time, well done Dietrich & Streptile.

Tom

[Wik]

Yes, really great thread.

I had also thought that I had a strong grasp and I know many of the EK makers and the corresponding PKZ and LDO numbers and marks.

I, for some reason, did think the PKZ numbers were before the LDO. Basically, I had thought the PKZ was earlier-mid war while LDO was mid-late war private purchased awards. Guess I was off the mark. Thanks for helping to correct it, even though I didn't know it was an error


Ryan

[Mike Kenny]

...and then there are the anomalies, against regulations;

4 & L/16 EK1s and WBs, 20 and L/52 EK1s, etc, cases of veterans only ever having one L/.. marked item, etc!

Regards
Mike