Another "Early Godet", could it be C F Zimmermann?

[Roglebk]

First of all, these crosses can be seen here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=235168

and here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=377545

Fact is that they come in a EKI and EKII version, both frames and cores match 100%, this is the only real facts we have at the moment imo.

They have been deemed Fake, Übergrösse and early Godet framed ones, but no proof yet. Could they be C F Zimmermann frames? At least Kai thinks so:

"EK 1.Klasse 1939, an Nadel, ohne Hersteller (jedoch typisches Stück des Hersteller "20" Zimmermann), Eisenkern, leicht getragener Zustand"

IF, and i say if, they are C F Zimmermann frames it means that we could have a C F Zimmermann assemblied EKII, so far none have been found marked.


The whole CFZ/Godet connection needs to be studied deeper. Hi-res pics of hardware, paint, numbers, swaz and beading is a must. The close connection between Godet and C F Zimmermann does not make it easier. So many theories and no real proof of who bought whos frames and cores and who really assemblied them. To me the maker of a cross is the one who made the core and frames and put them together, not the one who sold them and possibly marked them as their own.

[Douglas 5]

Hi Carl :
Interesting that you should bring this one up . Always confusion and chalenges with these Iron Crosses . It is not the 'norm' and I have been looking into the minor differences and have found the cause !
The company connection between Godet and CF Zimmermann is a quit known . The somehow odd crosses that do not quit match indicate another connection and something I suspected could exist and I think can be demonstrated with this cross . Disregard the Winkler description for now as it is IMO not correct .
Looking at the shown cross above one can determine the fallowing ; It is high grade silver plated with applied lacquer - so manufacturing time wise it is a very early cross that one would expect to be unmarked . Now the core in that one is a CF Zimmerman Core ! However the frame is not a Godet and not a CF Zimmerman frame at all !!!
Here is where I am now introducing a connection to the other name-like company Fritz Zimmermann ! The frame on the cross that opened the thread is the less common Fritz Zimmermann 1st frame EK die . How and why CF Z or maybe Godet got to use this frame (and parts combinations) I do not know ? Sold it ???
What ever the case and reason a CF core ended up in a Fritz Z frame . The above cross is not a very even struck/trimmed cross . The top arm full bead count of 25 on both matches . The 2 Fritz Zimmerman dies to compare it with .

Douglas

[Roglebk]

That's a very interesting theory Douglas! Always wondered if the 2 Zimmermanns shared more than their name. However, the cross on the left in your pic is not a match to the one that started the thread imo. Do you have close up's of the swaz/inner corner area? The 'unknown frame-CFZ/Godet core' cross has very distinct flaws and a very wide type of beading.

[Roglebk]

One of the distinct flaws, found on the 4 o' clock inner corner.

[Roglebk]

Another one, 2 o' clock outer corner.

[Douglas 5]

Sorry , took awile to get back regarding theat cross - Carl . I had been working early on a few projects this morning . My mistake - as you pointed out they do not match , and not sure why I used the Fritz Z for comparison as the Godet early EK2 and early EK1 have the 2 same flaws very clearly to be seen . Can't remember now who's early Godet EK2 I used now .

Douglas

[streptile]

Hey Carl,

Have you considered the similarities between this frame (thread-starter) and the frame of the "Swastika-on-base" Round 3 EK2? I don't have an example of either one, but perhaps someone could check them against eachother? I know there is a lug on one and none on the latter, but I'm just casting around here for a match...

"Early Godet":


Swatika-on-base R-3:

[Douglas 5]

The full bead count on the top arm on the Godet is 25 and on the R3 looks like 27 or 28 ..or so - in any case more . .. different dies .

Douglas

[streptile]

The full bead count on the top arm on the Godet is 25 and on the R3 looks like 27 or 28 ..or so - in any case more . .. different dies .

Douglas

Yes, right, thank Douglas .