Solid Buntmetal IAB

[skip]

Heres something rather nice that I would like to share with you all.

This is the first solid buntmetal IAB that I have ever seen. It is buntmetal throughout, I have made a small scratch in the side to check, as at first I thought it was just heavily plated zinc.

Skip

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi skip. It is truly a nice example...but Buntmetal?

What is the weight? I notice that the catch clearly has the texture of buntmetal, but the rest looks like zinc, which is what these badges were typically made of.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Skipy,

Thats an unmarked L/21 Foerster & Bart.

I know what you mean, these are not made out of zink. I have one in Silver and the same badge is also featured in Tucker's book on page 16. There it is described as made out of white metal. Since you told me my cut-out swas PAB was made from that type of material I presume you know what that is. Probably just one of the metals that belong in the group of Buntmetalls.

Here is mine, BTW yours is a realy beauty and only the second one I ever saw in Bronze

KR
Philippe

[Philippe DB]

UM L21 reverse

[skip]

Hi Lorenzo & Phil,

my thoughts were also with a heavily plated zinker, this little darling ways in at a wopping 32grms.
I did a scratch on the side, and underneath is a shiney bronze colour base metal.

Skip

[Philippe DB]

.
I did a scratch on the side, and underneath is a shiney bronze colour base metal.

Skip

Skip isn't that what they call "Messing" in German, don't know how it translates in to English

[skip]

Phil,

it could be "Messing", which is what english speakers call Brass.

Skip

[Philippe DB]

Hi Skip,

Just translated brass and this would be yellow copper ot tombak, seems we're back where we started

KR
Philippe

[Albert]

Guys,

First, let me say "hi" to you and "wow" to your badges

Technicaly speaking, zink also is Buntmetall. Anyway, let's stick to our jargon. I do not think these badges are made from Buntmetall as buntmetall badges do not recquire that kind of complicated and therefore cost intensive fixing of hinge and catch.

It has to be a metal that at the time of it's processing could not be welded. Brass and Copper could be welded. Zink and Aluminum "could not", but can be today. I have never held such a badge in my hands but from the manufacturing process and the weight would say it is zink. Not the "cheap" Kriegsmetall type of zink but a purer grade as Zink alloys come in different qualities, dull bluish grey to steel looking.

Why would the base metal be yellow then? Well, perhaps the plating is very thick and/or by scratching the surface with a pointy object it is possible to transport the plating into the recess which would give it a yellow appearance.

But if indeed the badge is made of yellow base metal, Brass or Copper, than it is a sure sign that the maker was just plain stupid

Just my two cents

Best regards,
Al

[Albert]

...Messing is Brass, a yellowish metal. Kupfer is Copper, a reddish metal.

br,
al

[skip]

Hi Albert,

Don´t quiet follow why you say the manufacturer was stupid.
Do you mean because he did´nt solder buntmetal?
SAy this manufacturer had the type of crimping machine to do his badges.
Would´nt it be cheaper for him to constuct them always in this manner. Then he saves himself the cost of buying solder and the skilled worker to do the attaching. This way you just have a guy who lays the badge in the press and pushes a button to make the machine do the crimping.
I have really no idea if this was really the case. I´m just pretty sure that this is buntmetal, I´ve handled a lot of zinc badges and this is not like any of them.

That said, if there is a mm of plating on this badge it could be zinc underneath. I´m not going to drill into it to find out though ;-)

Skip

[Albert]

Hi Skip,

"I´m not going to drill into it to find out though" Oh come on, what kind of collecting spirit is that. It's only a small hole for you but a big discovery for mankind; all be it the collecting part of it

On a more serious note: no it would not be cheaper.

Catch: He is already paying for a welding operation. The catch is soldered onto a base plate, right? On a BM badge this would be it. Here he needs additional manual labour, additonal material, and an expensive mould that forms the crimping around the, perhaps, preapplied hook-on-the-plate.

Basically the same applies to the hinge except there is no base plate.

Then there is additional handling. By welding you have one guy with two boxes, one with hinges one with hooks. All he does is sit all day and solder honges and hooks.

Here you have at least one guy who first operates the "catch" mold and then the "hinge" mold as they probably had/used only one machine for that operation and could not use both tools (moulds) at the same time.

So in other words it is much more expensive to construct badges that way. The reason they did was the accute lack of strategic raw materials that could be welded and they had to use crap metal that could not be welded/soldered.

Unfortunately, I do not have a process flow chart (well, neither did they) but that should be as close to their transformation process as one could get using the deductive method

BR,
Al

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Skip !
Your IAB is the nicest IAB by this maker , beleived to be Forster & Barth that I ever have seen .
GREAT badge Skip !

Jan Arne

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

In an effort to come to an answer on this question I just did something I never did before. I took a nail and scratched my IAB.

No yellow metal visible as you can on the scan, but only bright silver.

Albert you once told me that you are actively researching modern production techniques in an effort to get a better understanding on how these badges we handle every day could have been produced, and you probably know more about that than most of us.

So after scratching my badge for educational purposes I tend to agree with you. Probably zink isn't just zink in this context and the first zink badges used a much better mix of materials than the late war kriegsmetal badges with there dull dark grey zink. I said it before, a degree in chemistry probably would help me here but when it comes to materials and all their varations I'm far from an expert. Or maybe I better should say I realy don't know anything about the actual content of all these alloys and that really makes it difficult when it comes to determining what a badges is made of .

KR
Philippe

[Lorenzo Brown]

32 grams is not that much. Check out Yuri's article in The Military Advisor. He lists at least 10 zinc IAB's that weigh in at over 30 grams and another 5 around 28-30 grams.

Gotta go with Albert's logic on this one. Add to that, to cast a buntmetal alloy badge into that shape with the cast-in hinge and catch features would require substantially more heat to get the metal to a molten state, about double, than would be required for a zinc alloy. And its highly improbable if not impossible that the precise machining required to produce the hinge and catch would have been done in a die forging process.

Hate to argue with somebody who has the badge in hand...but I think you should rexamine these badges more closely.

Since you mention Tucker's book...you might note that he also lists the AG muk Blockade Breaker, the "AS" e-boat and the "AS" minesweeper all as TOMBAK!

ALL wrong....they are All ZINC! So that book is not a reliable source.

BTW....The Minesweeper and Blockade Breaker are both mine, so I speak from first hand experience.

@Philippe- I am looking forward to seeing your thread on your "F&B" theory. When will you be posting it?