Collect Russia Junckers KC

[Steiner63]

Hi all,I'm thinking of buying a Knights Cross,an apparently nice Junckers Knights cross in its case has been listed on the Collect Russia site for a year now,is there anything wrong with it?

[Stephen Stout]

If it hasn't been sold, most likely. But it might be, because the marking on the hallmark are the only things I don't like because them seem too blunt.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi all,I'm thinking of buying a Knights Cross,an apparently nice Junckers Knights cross in its case has been listed on the Collect Russia site for a year now,is there anything wrong with it?

I assume you mean the cased Juncker with the L/13 hallmark?

Here is what I can say about this:

- it is an absolute genuine Juncker with a genuine loop, ribbon and case
- an L/13 mark was (later) added. I say 'later' since the '800' is centered as it is normally the case.

Now 'later' could mean:

- shortly after manufacturing and clearly before May 1945, or
- after May 1945 (which I personally don't think!)

So worst case scenario is that one has a genuine Juncker with a possible post war stamp (Why???) and best case is that one has what is described at Collect Russia - a sample for Meybauer.

In any case: the cross, case and ribbon is genuine!

Dietrich

[Brian S]

The stamp looks like it was hit fairly hard onto the RK. This appears to me to have left a deep imprint. In any case it looks very much like the same stamp on a bronze Spanish Cross by Meybauer.

[Dave Kane]

I assume you mean the cased Juncker with the L/13 hallmark?

Here is what I can say about this:

- it is an absolute genuine Juncker with a genuine loop, ribbon and case
- an L/13 mark was (later) added. I say 'later' since the '800' is centered as it is normally the case.

Now 'later' could mean:

- shortly after manufacturing and clearly before May 1945, or
- after May 1945 (which I personally don't think!)

So worst case scenario is that one has a genuine Juncker with a possible post war stamp (Why???) and best case is that one has what is described at Collect Russia - a sample for Meybauer.

In any case: the cross, case and ribbon is genuine!

Dietrich

I can understand why the set has languished for better than a year. There are just too many QUESTIONS about the item. While the Cross shows a nice 'character', the mark and its method of application of course causes a concern. Additionally, the 800 marked loop ISN'T Juncker but rather S&L and is obvious when one looks at the font of the 800, conical tips etc.

At $10k (actually a bargain today for a set without 'questions') people are very reticent to drop that amount of money in to a set that does not conform to the accepted norm.

[Steiner63]

Thanks for your input,its appreciated

[Dietrich Maerz]

I can understand why the set has languished for better than a year. There are just too many QUESTIONS about the item. While the Cross shows a nice 'character', the mark and its method of application of course causes a concern. Additionally, the 800 marked loop ISN'T Juncker but rather S&L and is obvious when one looks at the font of the 800, conical tips etc.

It is very easy to raise all kinds of QUESTIONS and let others come up with answers. Tell us more about the mark and it's method of application! What is that evidently points to 'post war' - because only that could be the QUESTION.

The loop does not make a cross bad or good, nor does it switch a Juncker to an S&L. A very high percentage of crosses on the market and in collections have what some (not all...) would perceive as a 'wrong' loop.

This cross is a genuinly made Juncker! The only question is when was the L/13 added and I wish I could tell one way or the other. And I will NEVER say that I could just from the pictures.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

It is very easy to raise all kinds of QUESTIONS and let others come up with answers. Tell us more about the mark and it's method of application! What is that evidently points to 'post war' - because only that could be the QUESTION.

Dietrich

Well said Dietrich... I've presented one wartime Meybauer mark maybe someone else can show a Meybauer piece with a mark hit onto 800 silver with a heavy hand. My piece is a bronze SC so not easily prone to a deep mark although the mark is certainly clear and distinct.

I will postulate that a maker mark such as the Meybauer mark hit strongly and deeply onto a soft surface will tend to broaden or widen versus a lighter strike or a similar strike onto a harder surface.

[Dave Kane]

It is very easy to raise all kinds of QUESTIONS and let others come up with answers. Tell us more about the mark and it's method of application! What is that evidently points to 'post war' - because only that could be the QUESTION.

The loop does not make a cross bad or good, nor does it switch a Juncker to an S&L. A very high percentage of crosses on the market and in collections have what some (not all...) would perceive as a 'wrong' loop.

This cross is a genuinly made Juncker! The only question is when was the L/13 added and I wish I could tell one way or the other. And I will NEVER say that I could just from the pictures.

Dietrich

I clearly said that the Cross was Juncker made. However, for $10,000.00 in today's market a collector SHOULD have questions, particularly regarding the stamp and loop in this case.
The items are part of the set as offered but WHEN was the stamp added, when was it married to the S&L loop....dragging it further....when was the ribbon added and for that matter the case.

The Cross probably would (sell) better by itself but by making the offering a 'cased set' convolutes the originality, begs questions and thus it sits all this time.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

I see what you are saying but a possible mismatch is not necessarily a sign for 'bad' or 'post war' - and it happens ever day. And it is not as bad as those rotten 'put together provenances" ...

I'm really just looking at the cross and there is nothing that would tell me definetely 'good' or 'bad' in respect to the L/13 stamp. The stamp itself does compare favourably to other L/13 stamps.

But I could NOT say whethet this stamp is pre or post 45 and I don't dare to. I can only say for myself that I find it starnge that somebody after the war would put such a stamp on a geniune cross. For what? The devalue it?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Makes no sense to me that a perfectly great RK would have had a cobbed on maker mark postwar. If postwar it sure was a handy thing the idiot just 'happened' to have a stamp that was in the form of the Meybauer tool. But that's fine to say why I say why not? Looks entirely legitimate. If anything, a collector should be thrilled to have something NOT seen everyday when it makes sense. I don't believe this cross is worth one penny less with this configuration.

Just wondering if anyone with enough expertise in the Juncker crosses could determine if it was Jucker assembled? If Meybauer assembled, it would also make sense they may have bought loops from a supplier (S&L).

[Brian S]

Seems a shame this will simply "languish" because we can't do a little homework here...

[Kevin V.]

Seems a shame this will simply "languish" because we can't do a little homework here...

There is no doubt the KC is a genuine Juncker KC, as for the stamp my personal opinion is that the L/13 was added later but not postwar and that it was a sample for Meybauer but who can proof it? I can't.
Would it be that easy to add an L/13 stamp so deep without causing a distortion to the frame or was it stamped postwar and assembled postwar?
sincerely
Kevin

[Dave Kane]

There is no doubt the KC is a genuine Juncker KC, as for the stamp my personal opinion is that the L/13 was added later but not postwar and that it was a sample for Meybauer but who can proof it? I can't.
Would it be that easy to add an L/13 stamp so deep without causing a distortion to the frame or was it stamped postwar and assembled postwar?
sincerely
Kevin

Kevin, why would a 'sample' be marked with a company's L/#.....if not made by the entity?

Secondly, whenever it was 'stamped' and I'm leaning POST war just on gut feeling the frame needn't be disfigured as jewelers have used a pincher (plier) type tool for hundreds of years and if PRESSED against a flat surface the depth of the imprint could be considerable while the opposit side unaffected.

Just 'picture' the interior flat area of a ring....no hammer / stamp used there but rather a plier like tool.!

[andrewb]

I'm not to keen on the double strike of the 1813 on the back. For almost $10k I suppose its a fair price but for me I would rather spend another 2 or 3k and get one that I can look at without any distractions.

The other Juncker RK below that one for 11k with a dent on the left lower back is the same one pictured in The Iron Times 1st Ed on page 318 and 2nd Ed on page 384. Nice double hinge case too! Foe an extra grand I think its the better buy of the two.
AB.