Original LRDG Badge?

[stuartie485]

I have what I 'think' is an original LRDG badge.

Could the "Forum Professors" (Joke!) please look at the at this URL:-



and tell me:-
Is it original?
What is it's value?

It is currently attached to an Afrika Korps tunic belt with a lot of other British and Commonweatlth cap badges and was left by my late dad (I'm 64) having originally been in his brothers collection.

Thank you.

[DJT]

These are widely faked and originals are super rare. The problem is, without an example with cast iron provenance to compare to it is quite difficult to determine authenticity. Your source sounds promising but we can't judge the badge on the story itself. You really need someone who specializes in LRDG stuff to take a look at it for you. Sorry I can't help further.

[ROBB]

Could we have a pic of the whole belt .How is the badge connected to the belt ? It could be a good one as no faker would ruin a valuable DAK belt ,but as Des says these are uber faked .Rob.

[stuartie485]

Original LRDG Badge?

Thank you for the prompt replies gentlmen.

Here are some of the pics of the belt. I have many more of the belt and the badges and would be pleased to post them or email them.

The LRDG badge seems to be attached to the belt with just a piece of thin wire like one leg of a cap badge pin - if you know what I mean.


Thank you

Stuart

[Jim Maclean]

I totally agree with Des and Rob.

The only assistance I can offer is the attached image taken from Bosley's auction site some time last year of a supposedly genuine LRDG cap badge.

Seems we have attachment problems, will try again later

[BrentNunns]

Heres my 2nd pattern LRDG badge, It came from the C Hooper colection (one of New Zealands leading badge collectors), he inturn got it from Paul Farmers collection. Both these people are considered expert in LRDG insignia. Paul inturn got it from Geoff Oldham who is New Zealands leading militaria dealer. Although a long time ago Geoff believes it was brought into him by a relative of the original owner.
C Hoopers collection includes 14 more of these 2nd pattern and one of the very rare silver 1st pattern.

[BrentNunns]

[BrentNunns]

[BrentNunns]

Heres some autographs of New Zealand LRDG members that I display with the badge.

[BrentNunns]

[BrentNunns]

Here some extracts from Brendan OCarrolls superb book "The Kiwi Scorpions"
The 1st insignia to mark the LRP was in the form of a commemorative badge, presented to those who went on the initial incursion into libya, in August 1940. Only 7 were awarded at a special parade at Abbassia by Anthony Eden (British Foreign Secretary).
Private Merv Curtis, a New Zealander, who received one of these, recalls how on the night of the parade he had run short of money, therefore sold his badge to a British soilder for 3 pounds and 10 shillings - a considerable sum at the time. Later, Bagnold got to hear about it and was furious.

[BrentNunns]

The second insignia to mark the LRP is known as the 1st pattern (unofficial) and made for those who served with W,R and T Patrols of the LRP. It was introduced to mark the existance of this near complete "Kiwi" force, before the Guards joined in Dec 1940 and it became known as the LRDG. The insignia was designed by Corporal C.O. (Bluey) Grimsey, an LRP recruit from the 7th NZ Anti Tank Regt. Later captured by the Germans in Dec 1942.
The badge was struck, made of silver and brooch mounted, it exhibited a fat scorpion enclosed in a circle that represented a wheel. Below this on seperate scrolls was LRP / NZ / LRDG. Because the scorpion was disproportionate it looked more like a beetle, so was oftern refered to as the "scarab" badge. The scorpion was said to be modelled on the one that had stung Grimsey 3 times. He survived, but it died, and was kept pickled in a jar of spirit.
In Early 1941 Issac Faber, a French Jeweller, top end of the Fauad, in Cairo was contracted to manufacture the badges. Eric Carter (T Patrol) said it cost 10 pounds to have the die made, and the men purchased their own badges. Being silver some were stamped on the reverse with either 2 or 3 Arabic hallmarks, some were not stamped at all.
The initial order was for 68 badges to be struck, yet up to 87 may have been manufactured before the men destroyed the die themselves.
Though some were worn as hat badges while at base or on leave, they were rarely displayed, if at all, in the field. Eventually, most were sent home to friends or family.

[BrentNunns]

The 2nd Pattern and official LRDG badge was adopted in early 1942. It was made of brass for O/Rs, and either blackened brass or bronze for officers, though they could wear either type. Still based on the original design, the scorpion was thinner and more accurately represented, also the LRDG letters were now enclosed within the circle. Most were produced in Egypt, where they were either cast or struck, then hand cut. There was usually no makers mark, and the quality, finish and design were variable. Some makers displayed slightly different patterns on the back of the scorpion, and the circle varied in form, either being oval or with a single or double raised edge. Private purchase was also obtainable, such as sweetheart badges for girlfriends or family. These were brooch mounted examples that were either plated or made in solid gold or silver. One New Zealand patrol commander ordered a gold badge inset with diamonds. Further more, men could order LRP/LRDG jewellery such as silver rings featuring gold scorpions, and gold or silver badge tie pins. Brassware items like LRDG engraved shell cases or ashtrays were also available.

In 1945 an English manufacturer J R Gaunt & Son made 50 pairs of brass LRDG shoulder titles and 50 second pattern LRDG cap badges. The Companies name was stamped on the reverse of the insignia. These were especially ordered, to be worn by the LRDG veterans who participated in the victory parade in London. LRDG insignia was at first forbidden for security reasons, but Bagnold later relented in the interest of "Esprit de corps" . The shoulder titles and badges were mainly worn at base or on leave but were generally discouraged from being worn in the field. However photos taken on the patrol, notably in the latter part of the campaign, often showed the men displaying their LRDG insignia. Due the general lack of outward identification, especially in summer when the men wore little proper uniform, they all carried paybooks to identify them as soldiers, so if captured they could not be accused of being spies. By the time of the Dodecanese Operations in late 1943 LRDG insignia was usually worn in the field.

[John Wright]

Brent,thank-you it's one of the most detailed outlines of the history of the LRDG badge I've ever seen.It's also details the rarity of these badges in the small quantities produced,so one has to assumed most on the market are fakes,even the one at the beginning of this thread as it shows differences to your type 2.

John

[BrentNunns]

Thanks John, but full credit belongs to Brendan OCarroll. I am no expert on LRDG badges and agree with Des that without solid provenance, expert advice is what is needed.
Stuart if you E-mail me ( brentn@osoal.org.nz ) with better pictures, I would be happy to forward them on to C Hooper.
As to the value of an original 2nd pattern badge that is a hard one. If you have two interested bidders with pockets full of cash, and only one badge, the price can be high. Geoff Oldhams catalog "Badges and Insignia of the New Zealand Army" printed in 1997 has a value of $300.
Most badges have doubled in price since then, some of the rarer badges have increased 5 to 10 times their catalog price. Brent