Black lights and Rayon: For Real?

[greg.hays]

I thought that this would be the place for this type of discussion as these two issues are most pertinent to cases and packets, as well as ribbons. This is an issue that has bothered me for quite a while and I recently brought up some of my research in another thread. Wrong place for it in retrospect. So maybe this would be the place to start a meaningful discussion on Rayon and blacklight testing.

Here is what is irking me. The thought that Rayon is a synthetic fiber and that anything containing this material is deemed reproduction or fake. Also that its "glowing" under blacklight testing is evidence of this.

Let me start by saying that Rayon was in fact in mass production throughout North America and Europe well before WWII. It was first developed in France in 1890 as "artificial silk" and by 1924 the term Rayon was coined. It is a natural fiber arising from wood pulp and is not synthetic like nylon or polyester. By the 1930's rayon was quite commonly used both for tire cord and clothing ect.....

Germany most certainly had rayon available before, early and late in the war. This is evidenced in an Allied bombing report of German industries in the Ruhr..

German Chemical Industry

Nitrogen
Nitrogen<SUP>4</SUP> is essential to war. Military powders and high explosives require nitrogen (in the form of nitric acid) for their production. Fixed nitrogen is also vital to agriculture; the Germans considered 2.2 pounds of nitrogen equivalent to 33.1 pounds of cereals. In addition to the large-volume applications of obviously critical military concern, nitrogen plays many secondary, less critical roles in the manufacture of rocket propellants, dyes, lacquers, plastics, rayon, films, drugs, and salts for case hardening of metals.

As well as by reports presented in the Nuremberg trials....

Taken from “the Nuremberg Trials Volume 6”



22 Jan. 46

in 1938 the needs in textile products amounted in Belgium to a monthly average of twelve kilos. The respective figures for the occupation years are the following: 1940 to 1941-2.1 kilos per head, 1941 to 1942-1.4, 1942 to 1943-1.4, 1943 to 1944-0.7. The diminution of Belgian consumption under the Germans is contained in these two figures; twelve kilos per head in 1938; 0.7 kilo at the end of the occupation. - On the other side, the Belgian Government gives the following details on the pillage of this produce. Compulsory deliveries to Germany during the occupation amounted to: Cotton yam, about 40 percent of the production; linen, 75 percent; rayon, 15 percent.

So why would this material not be used in cases and for ribbons? Doesn't make sense to me.

Now let me jump to the blacklight test. Yes Rayon does glow under blacklight, a function of a nitrogen phosphor used in its manufacture. So to me the blacklight test in this instance proves nothing. Does any of this mean rayon WAS used by TR medal manufacturers.....No. It means they may have.

Now let me harp on the blacklight test itself. The whole concept of the blacklight is that the light energy it emmits causes electrons in elements known as phosphors to reach an excited state and "glow". Of course this is simplified for ease of reading, but that's the jist of it. Now, there are literally thousands of occurring phosphors used in or a byproduct of many manufacturing proccesses in the textile industry.

Why do we care? Because the prevailing argument for using the blacklight test on packets centers on the notion that the method of paper bleaching in the TR era was different then that used post 1950. Undoubtably true, however both methods involve chemicals that are phosphors. Now, the post 1950 method involves phosphors that are more persistant and in greater concentration, but the method used pre and during WWII also involved chemicals that are phosphors. What's my point......Authentic WWII era paper packets can and in many instances will glow.

I know this has been a lengthy post so I'll stop now. Lets see if anyone else has wondered about this, and if so I can eloborate more on what I have found about the methods of paper production during the early 1900's through the 1950's. It may shed some light on this whole blak light test issue.

[SCHUPO]

Greg,

An interesting and logical discussion of black lights and rayon (as well as bleached white paper products). I agree with you on several points. First, is that rayon certainly was used by the Germans (and Americans, et.al.) before and during WWII. As I recall off hand, the German name for "artificial silk" was Pearlon during the war and the DDR called it Dederon after WWII. At any rate, Rayon is certainly a wartime material.

As to black light "testing," I also agree with you that it is not a single test case of being able to determine if some thing is "real" or postwar. Black lighting should only be used as an indicator. Many "real" or original wartime materials will show florescence (or glow) under black light as you describe. For instance, bright karmesin piping used by the Feuerwehr will glow because that is the proper color chosen for the wartime, and later, German fire service. The proper use of black light is to act as one indicator of possible red flags. If something, such as the stitching holding on a piece of insignia, glows that you think should not glow...it warrants a closer look. IMHO, it should not be used as a sole test if something is of the period or not. Whether or not specific parts of an award case or a paper packet should glow is perhaps another question.

[keifer kahn]

Good points
lets be honest,collectors can be ignorant at times.Some get confused with synthetics and seem to lump them all together.Its all down to how much time one spends researching.Lets face it,some people dont research and keep collecting based on what other ignorants tell them.
Rayon has never been classed as a full synthetic anyway,its always been a semi synthetic for the reasons you explained greg.That being its base is derived from a natural source.
Some seem to think rayon also melts .Its burn characteristics arent any different to cotton.
rayon is a common uniform and insignia material.nearly all bevo insignia are produced on rayon backing roll.Hbt tunics are normally comprised from a cotton rayon blend.Hbt liners are normally rayon.
Rayon was heavily produced in germany due to the simple fact that germany didnt and still hasnt got a major cotton industry.They simply needed a replacement material.In fact the only major producer of cotton, germany wasnt at war with was Brazil.
All the other world cottonbiggies,USA,Australia,etc were on the allies side.So what do the ignorant collectors think the germans used in cottons place?.They wouldnt have a clue and most probaly think everything was made from cotton. Wrong!

Lets face,it the blacklight test was a child from the 70,s and im convinced that with the advent of fluorescent lighting being used on widespread basis in disco,s during that period,some smart collector,though this"glowing" was a new phenomenom of the age.he then arrived at the not so logical conclusion,that glowing equals post war and the rest is legend(or myth).

Unfortunately,the zigfeld follies were using the exact same thing in 1903 for their stage shows.
Greg,you have obviously educated your self ,so silence the next dumb ass with facts.
Its always amazed me how people build collections based on the rubbish they believe.

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

Hello all

Hi Greg & Keifer,

Here is the ribbon that sort of started Gregs research in the other thread.

Now how do I determine that it is original if haveing done the burn test the thread balls up & melts but does not "burn" as the test is suppossed to determine.

I dont have a black light but I can tell you that the ribbon in question is very stiff & unlike other ribbons I have on other medals such as the EK, westwall etc.

Now I understand that this is an "italian" medal so are they different in ribbon construction to Germans etc

ie how does a collector determine how a ribbon is post war etc & build a quality collection with out being a dumbass in fact by reading forums that is how most of us come to have this information so whilst I appreciate your comments perhaps they are a bit harsh on the newer collectors who know no better but beleive the "experts' who post in answer to their questions ??
Craig

[nellyp51]

Fantastic point made

The only thing I would say is that blacklight testing is only used as a guideline or as a detective tool as part of an investigation process to supply the buyer with informed evidence creating informed choice to the purchase of a specific item.

As collectors we require all the help and evidence we can find when paying out big $$$$$ for the awards we love, most collectors have been stung at some stage, it is only natural that paranoia begins to creep into your decision making, so you begin to research the article to be able to make an informed decision at the final stage of purchase.

I agree with everything you have pointed out and the information you have provided is fantastic.

If we can remember that blacklight testing is only one of many tools used in the purchase of a lovely item then we go a long way to becoming more professional with our passion.

To rule out an item becuase of its organic nature is in my words unprofessional, but for some also safe, we need to question the item in front of us at the time and our knowledge of all the aspects we have been taught bu others that make such a joy for us all out of this fantastic profession.

Thank you for what you have taught me it will not be forgotton.

[Scott C.]

Well, I guess I'm really confused now. I agree with what's being said here (although I thought Brazil entered the war on the allied side), but many other well informed folks on the forum believe "glow is no-go."

For instance, a while back I posted this medal bar for opinions noting that all the medals were originals sewn to the bar, but the center and right center ribbons glowed under black light. The bar was immediatly ruled post-war manufacture because glow is no-go. I trust the source I purchased this bar from, but now I have my doubts...

Scott

[keifer kahn]

As for Brazil,you are correct,and i should of clarifed.They were still supplying germany with cotton till brazil severed relations late 1941(post pearl harbor i think.
I think there seems to be some confusion that rayon as a fibre glows.Rayon doesnt glow unless fluorescent dye is added.M36 breast eagles are white rayon and dont glow.The white embroidery in late war heer sleeve edleweiss,s are rayon and dont glow.Many flag disks are cotton rayon blends and dont glow.

My Dumbass comment wasnt directed at any particular level of collector.

It was directed at collectors that i classify as "procurors".People who simply buy and dont ever research.They collect based on myths fostered by other "procurors.
The information on rayon is freely available through any library and there are many online sources as well.Greg has provided some decent wartime information.How come greg found this and some cant.Greg sourced the info and some dont bother.
To not know the relevant information on what you collect is just being lazy and inviting financial loss.
As for ribbons melting,there is enough information available on period ribbon makers to know that no plastics, were used in ribbon production.If the ribbon feels stiff,its likely another bad indicator.
I dont agree that basing the authenticity of an item on its organic base is unproffessional.Simply knowing the timeline on fibres and their characteristics,can instantly eliminate some items if they are constructed from certain materials.Polyester for example has its own characteristics (not just melting,it has its own structure under magnification) and was not invented till the 50,s.If i find an item made from that,its instantly gone.No confusion,polyester simply didnt exist till the 1950,s.So how can the item be pre 45.

As for the answers provided on here by the more experienced,i dont think i have encountered any on here that says rayon isnt a ww2 material.Its been discussed and noted many times.
I thought it was an obvious fact and not even a point anywhere near debating.
Show me someone whos says rayon is post war and ill show you someone who knows squat about textiles used in german militaria.

The confusion with rayon stems from the fact that people think that rayon is like nylon.Simply because it sounds the same.The two are worlds apart.Nylon is petroleum based.rayon is wood pulp based.
Some where along the line,the word "synthetic" enters the terminology.
People again think because both have synthetic attached that they are again similar and must have the same characteristics.Wrong.nylon is a full synthetic,rayon is a semi synthetic.
People then start blacklighting items,find out the item glows,realise the fibre is synthetic,then somehow arrive at the illogical conclusion that fluoresence is engineered into synthetics.Wrong.There is not a single fibre made in the world that fluoresces off the spinnet as raw fibre.No fibre glows till it has dye added.That goes for rayon,polyester ,nylon,dacron,etc.That is an industry fact.Not an opinion,nor a rumour,nor a guess.Go to any local textile mill and blacklight textiles before they do colour change.
If you dont believe me,go and blacklight a piece of nylon fishing line.I can 100% guarantee you,it will not fluoresce.
Why,because it hasnt had any dye added and its still in the form it basically came off the spinnet in.

[greg.hays]

Hi Craig, please don't think that I believe anyone to be a dumbass concerning this topic . My intention was not to make anyone feel that way. The thread you started was just the nail in the coffin for me, I had been looking into this since attending a show at Stuttgart last year. I have heard numerous times "..well does it glow....well then it's no good." And that is just not accurate, hence I piped in on your thread which was the wrong place in retrospect. So no insult intended

Hi Greg & Keifer,

Here is the ribbon that sort of started Gregs research in the other thread.

Now how do I determine that it is original if haveing done the burn test the thread balls up & melts but does not "burn" as the test is suppossed to determine.

I dont have a black light but I can tell you that the ribbon in question is very stiff & unlike other ribbons I have on other medals such as the EK, westwall etc.

Now I understand that this is an "italian" medal so are they different in ribbon construction to Germans etc

ie how does a collector determine how a ribbon is post war etc & build a quality collection with out being a dumbass in fact by reading forums that is how most of us come to have this information so whilst I appreciate your comments perhaps they are a bit harsh on the newer collectors who know no better but beleive the "experts' who post in answer to their questions ??
Craig

[greg.hays]

Hi Keifer, I would just like to clarify one of your points concerning rayon and when it will glow. First, I agree rayon will glow when a dye containing a phospor is used. Most dyes contain these phosphors. In addition, and this is the real danger of the blacklight test, if almost any detergent ever made is used on the rayon it WILL glow. Hence the use of blacklight testing on say tunics and there stiching ect... is very inaccurate and could only serve to further confuse an assessmnet. As to rayon not glowing say naturally I completely agree it doesn't. To me using a blacklight for any test of authenticity in our realm of antique collecting is equal to relying on winning the lottery for your retirement.

[keifer kahn]

Hi Greg,

I did a fair bit of research on fluorescent dyes a few years back and i also arrived at the conclusion that it wasnt a simple cut and dry case.Certainly not the way some collectors throw the old blacklight about.
Fluoresence has been observed as a naturally occurring phenomana by scientists since the 1600,s and ultimately dyeing compounds for fabric were made from those sources(plants).
Commercial whiteners were available well before the end of the 19th century.These were fluorescent in nature.
Ive already mentioned the zigfeld follies.They were using blacklight and fluorescent dyes in 1903 in their shows.
Pop shannon in the early 30,s developed fluorescent,paints dyes, and stains for use in theatrical work,which were widely used and the company Shannon Luminous materials,may ring a bell to anyone who has researched this area.
The famous german firm I.G.Farben held many patents and developed many fluoresecent dyes and whiteners.As did Dupont in the states.


There are literally volumes on the subject but to the people who cant be bothered researching,fluorescence remains a post war invention.

[greg.hays]

Hi Keifer, well we are pretty much in agreement concerning rayon , what are your thoughts on paper production in the TR and the reliability of Black light testing on these items. So far I know that paper was prodominantly produced using the Kraft process developed by a German chemist named C.F.Dahl. He used caustic soda and Sulfate pulp to manufacture many grades of paper including packing and printing paper. It was subsequently bleached using Chlorine dioxide or peroxide. I know Chlorine dioxide produces phosphor byproducts but can't find any information concerning what exact compound is a byproduct and how strong its persistence is. But to me logic dictates that if the bleaching agents contained phosphors and paper pakets like the EKII packets were died, why would they also not flouresce under blacklight?

[keifer kahn]

Hi Greg,

Im not a big paper collector and cant really provide you with any extra clues.I prefer it if something doesent glow,simply because of the stigma associated with the"glow".Does that make it genuine?Of course not.
I have found in regards to some photo papers that certainly an appearance of luminescence is apparent in some brands and this seems to increase with increased levels of glossiness.
The problem with many of the "validation" techniques we use are that they arent based on science nor fact.As evident by the non acknowledgement by many collectors of the facts behind fluorescent agents.

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

Hi Craig, please don't think that I believe anyone to be a dumbass concerning this topic . My intention was not to make anyone feel that way. The thread you started was just the nail in the coffin for me, I had been looking into this since attending a show at Stuttgart last year. I have heard numerous times "..well does it glow....well then it's no good." And that is just not accurate, hence I piped in on your thread which was the wrong place in retrospect. So no insult intended

No mate not at all - I appreciate everyone who takes the time & effort to reply to a post - I was only joking around myself.

So just so I do learn something - if you do the burn test & it melts away like the pic shown - what does that mean - I assume it is polyester ?? I believe I read that rayon also "ashes" away which would make sense if it is made from wood pulp & not melt ??? In other words if you are a bit suss on a ribbon how do you tell it is post war vs original ?? what are the tests done to give yourself a bit of an idea - from the forums I thought the blacklight & the burn test - what else is there.

& I agree from reading the forums I have learnt that original material "glows" but it's how they glow compared to modern equivalents that is the key - is it not
Regards
Craig

[Shawn Southern]

Interesting Thread

This is an interesting thread - thanks for sharing your research. Given the topic of this thread, another myth which might be worth dispelling here is the relatively common reference to cloth having been "dry cleaned" as reason for it fluorescing under UV. At least for the past 50 years, drycleaning agents typically used been chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents such as perchloroethylene, trichloroethylene, trichloroethane. These compounds contain no phosphors, hence this "explanation" does not hold water. .

Also (an unrelated note) ......As most Panzer collector's know, it common for pink-dyed Panzer insignia to produce a vivid orange glow under UV, because of the phosphors in the dye. Anyway - good thread which I've found interesting., so I thought I'd pass that along.

Shawn

[all1knew]

Hello all,

I know that the burn test and the black-light test are good, but how else can you determine if an item is made from "modern" synthetic threads? Please let me know either way. Thank you.

William Kramer