Real or Imitation Frosting on EKs ?

[Douglas 5]

I am moving this from the' ...Hand Frosting......' thread and starting a separate new thread to continue .
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1000973

It appears we have been calling every thing that makes the cross frame beading - and or some times the entire frame "stand out with a bling whiteness "
-- plain across the board simple : " Frosting or Frosted " !

The previous discussion in the other thread brings to light that there are differences . I will be selling my own collection at some point and like any one else
I want to be describing what the cross is or has - correctly .
As Dietrich points out on some KCs 'paint' was used ... and I assume the lower grade EKs would have gone through the same frame treatment long
before the higher grades did .

Some the W&L crosses I have are absolutely very different from others that clearly points out we have different methods .
There for I would like to ask if the following 3 groups are an acceptable description of 'frosting' types :
1- Mechanical frosting
2- Acid/chemical frosting
3- Imitation Frosting- paint

Now - after going over some of the W&L crosses I have again and again - it appears some of these W&L crosses now might only be the 'painted' type .
I will be posting various ones asking for input or opinions regards them .
1 - First #1 I am guessing might be a mechanical treatment to create a ''frosty ' look . Every thing on the frame has turned blue-ish-black ... just the bead crowns remain
somewhat 'shiny' (cold white ) looking ?? The crowns have not changed color ... just wear and damaged spots .
2- #2 -- this is the one I am thinking might actually be painted ? The side shot shows on this one - no seam - Paint is something that would cover it totally - am I correct ?

Regards , Douglas

[Wim Vangossum]

Ok, no problem to start here again. But finding the answers will still be difficult. I have posted a few new pictures on a silversmith forum. Fingers crossed.

Regards, Wim

[Norm F]

Please forgive the comments of a non-Cross guy, but I'd suggest that the "painted" or "applied layer" method should not be called "imitation" frosting, since this is, if anything, the most natural use of the term frosting -- as in frosting on a cake or frosting on the lawn in early winter.

The application of a clean matte white frosted layer is common to many awards as nicely illustrated by Ian Hulley's post in the other thread here. Along with all of Ian's examples of frosted awards, you also see this on the central motif of the Minesweeper badge so it's no stretch to assume this is the same process often applied to EK beading.

In fact, the alternative process of chemically etching the metal to appear frosted would be more appropriately called "imitation frosting", since in that case one is artificially creating the appearance of a frosted surface.

Like Wim, what interests me most is not so much which makers used applied frosting and which makers preferred an etching process, but rather what is the exact chemical composition and method of application of the frosting layer in all those frosted awards. Dietrich's analysis suggest it was not rhodium so we're left with something else. Ideally, one would scrape some white frosting of a few minty awards and subject those samples to chemical analysis to solve this mystery.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

The SEM analysis of the painted frosting is clearly a paste with silver content. This was tested on more than 10 Iron Crosses 1. Class and it always showed the same result. Underlying material is Neusilber (frame), painted frosting contains silver.

[Norm F]

The SEM analysis of the painted frosting is clearly a paste with silver content. This was tested on more than 10 Iron Crosses 1. Class and it always showed the same result. Underlying material is Neusilber (frame), painted frosting contains silver.

Thanks Dietrich. Excellent to have your elemental analyses on record. It would be further helpful to know more specifically the silver-containing chemical compound that allows for that nice matte white layer which does not oxidize over time, and whether that compound is still used by jewellers today.

[Norm F]

Regarding one possible technique for a non-painted frosting, I don't know if this is relevant but here's a Youtube video on an age-old method of mechanically frosting a silver surface:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHg_sW7cn-c

Here the silver alloy is heated with a torch to about 800 degrees which depletes the copper from the surface of a silver alloy piece. It's then dipped in an acid bath ("pickle pot") to remove any oxidation. Done repeatedly this results in a white matte silver-enriched surface to the jewelry piece.

I don't know how this would behave subsequently in terms of tarnishing, but perhaps this method could have been applied to an entirely silver-flashcoated frame before burnishing the edges back to a polished look? On elemental analysis, one would expect the surface of the beading would then show a higher silver content than the deeper alloy.

Like I say, just a thought. Don't know if it's relevant, and don't know how many different methods of "frosting" were being employed by makers in wartime. The Deschler thread suggests their preferred method of mechanical frosting was to electroplate the frames and then use a rotating wire brush to scratch the matte finish into the surface before polishing the edges. That sounds a little safer and easier than the heat enrichment method?

So many possible methods -- heat enrichment, mechanical etching, applied frosting.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Wim Vangossum]

Regarding one possible technique for a non-painted frosting, I don't know if this is relevant but here's a Youtube video on an age-old method of mechanically frosting a silver surface:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHg_sW7cn-c

Here the silver alloy is heated with a torch to about 800 degrees which depletes the copper from the surface of a silver alloy piece. It's then dipped in an acid bath ("pickle pot") to remove any oxidation. Done repeatedly this results in a white matte silver-enriched surface to the jewelry piece.

I don't know how this would behave subsequently in terms of tarnishing, but perhaps this method could have been applied to an entirely silver-flashcoated frame before burnishing the edges back to a polished look? On elemental analysis, one would expect the surface of the beading would then show a higher silver content than the deeper alloy.

Like I say, just a thought. Don't know if it's relevant, and don't know how many different methods of "forsting" were being employed by makers in wartime.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

I think the treatment was done at a moment the cross was already assembled. So heating it up to 800 degrees would be very bad for the painted core?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here the silver alloy is heated with a torch to about 800 degrees which depletes the copper from the surface of a silver alloy piece. It's then dipped in an acid bath ("pickle pot") to remove any oxidation. Done repeatedly this results in a white matte silver-enriched surface to the jewelry piece.

This is the process that I have described in my Knights Cross book on page 19. It is the old procedure of Weiss-Sieden and the one I have named "Chemical Frosting." I have found this type of frosting only an very early Steinhauer & Lück Knights Crosses and never on any EK 1 or EK2 (which makes sense since this works only with a silver frame). It can be safely ruled out for the EK1 and EK2. There are only two processes: the painted frosting and galvanizing andfollowing brush polishing.

The photo below is a microscopic detail of the frosting I took in 2006 and published in 2007.

I think the treatment was done at a moment the cross was already assembled. So heating it up to 800 degrees would be very bad for the painted core?

Of course this process was done before assembly! It required the covering of the frame in areas where etching was not to occure. Polishing of the flanges was done after assembly, not the etching.

[Douglas 5]

Norm :
Any and all feed back and other comments are welcome .
I am fine to go with a definition or expression the awards community deems appropriate .
So frosting is : Any changes to a surface to enhance it's appearance . Frosting can be achieved in different ways .

As Dietrich indicated this is done by 'painting' . Interesting is the use of silver in this 'paste' ( so not a thin paint then ) ?
This to me would indicate -possibly - we have a mixture of some kind of silver-oxide compound with a binding agent that hardens .
The durability of this coating is stunning and extreme durable to say the least .
One frosting process that can be done after assembly as a cold process .

No sure if the solder used in those days would stand up to that temperature - certainly the paint would not .
Any 'heat' method usage before assembly would work ... and the heat marks on the frame easy enough to polish off the frame .

Douglas

[Wim Vangossum]

These two pictures come from a reference work. It's an 800 marked Imperial cross. Note that the "treatment comes over the edges to the backside of the cross. It looks like the beading and the flanges + some edges on the back received the 'treatment' and afterwards the flanges were polished…


It's pretty much the same effect on the reverse like on the reverses of minty Kriegsmarine badges.

[boch_62]

These two pictures come from a reference work. It's an 800 marked Imperial cross. Note that the "treatment comes over the edges to the backside of the cross. It looks like the beading and the flanges + some edges on the back received the 'treatment' and afterwards the flanges were polished…


It's pretty much the same effect on the reverse like on the reverses of minty Kriegsmarine badges.

But we agree that this is a second-war follower (WW2) of the cross EK1-1914 ...

Regards
Jarek

[Douglas 5]

Nice .... Vim :
So what is this treatment then - painted - galvanized ( probably not acid) ???

Douglas

[Norm F]

There are only two processes: the painted frosting, and galvanizing and following brush polishing.

Well that pretty well sums it up then. 1) The painting process as clarified by observation, microscopy and elemental analysis and 2) the mechanical process (galvanizing followed by brushing) as clarified by both observation and the historical documentation from the Deschler factory.

The EK1 posted by Wim again nicely shows the painted-on frosting complete with remants that splashed on to the reverse before the obverse edges were polished clean.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Douglas 5]

Now I would like to put forth to the community here these 2 marked W&L EK2s .
Are these : The painted frosting version . And can the also covered ribbon ring be used - for this maker - as a indicator , that we have a painted EK ???

At the same time I am trying to get input on why these 2 are so different in appearance ... as one spotted / and one lighter in color ?
Are we looking at less coatings and or a changing coating material compound ?

Thanks
Douglas

[Wim Vangossum]

IMO the difference is the way the aged over the many decades?



@Norm: was the gold wash on the Mint Kriegsmarine badges also painted on or fire gilded? I guess fire gilding was also applied manual on the surface and then heated to vaporise the mercury.



The finish on some of these EK's look indeed "painted"


One thing I want to mention or exclude: assume that they painted on a protective layer so they could give the unpainted an thus exposed surface an acid -like treatment. Is that also a possibility? Or is that a stupid thought?