Manufacturers of the Grand Cross

[Gordon Williamson]

Just fishing for information here.

The only authorised supplier of the Grand Cross to the Präsidialkanzlei was Juncker of Berlin. Juncker's GK is fairly easy to spot as it has the eye sunk pretty far into the frame, a bit like some of the postwar copies of the RK.



Unfortunately Junckers GK tooling survived the war and was used to restrike them in the 60s/70s. These are idemtical to the wartime pattern and there is no real way to tell the wartime and postwar strikes apart.

There is some anecdotal evidence that Souval may have made them also, not of course as official suppliers, but to supply museum displays etc and probably to round out their own product displays etc. Again, Souval pieces were widely manufactured after the war, so any Souval made piece is going to be treated with extreme suspicion and unlikely to attract much favour.

There is however a third known variant, definitely of the period, but so far with maker unidentified. This type is shown in Geissler's book, both as a complete item and also disassembled. This is the type which seems to have been used as the base for the first type GK with gold outer frame. This type is shown in the book on the Iron Cross produced by the Deutsches Ordensmuseum in Lüdenscheid. The case for this type is described in the book as being blue (not red with gold embossed eagle like the official piece awarded to Göring). It is in fact the same case as used for the Knights Cross of the War merit Cross but with the base design recessed to suit a GK.



This GK is similar in many respects to the Souval piece, with a few small but significant differences.
Enlargements of the relevant areas follow.

[Gordon Williamson]

In each case, the postwar Souval copy is at top, the unidentified maker below.





The numerals on the Souval are very similar but "flatter"

[Gordon Williamson]

Same with the 1813

[Gordon Williamson]

The swastika on the Souval, like their Knights Cross, is very low, though this isn't apparent from a direct face on view. The unknown maker piece has a high swastika, level with the beaded edge, exactly as described by Geissler.

[Gordon Williamson]

The eye also looks very similar in style, only just set into the edge of the frame, but the Souval eye is slightly bigger.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here are the two together, Souval at left.




I'd be very interested to hear if anyone has any info on who the unknown manufacturer might be. Steinhauer seems a possibility if what is often said is true and that Herr Escher of that firm cut all the initial Iron Cross 1939 series dies.

[U-Boot Kapitan]

Grand Cross of Unknown Maker

Just thought I'd revive this thread.

Is there any information out there as to who the maker of this cased Grand Cross could be?

Regards,
Jay

[willy]

I think one theory is it's a Souval made during wartime for shop displays piece. Bill Stump had a GK his Uncle brought back from W.W.II, it was a Souval.

[U-Boot Kapitan]

Just fishing for information here.

The only authorised supplier of the Grand Cross to the Präsidialkanzlei was Juncker of Berlin. Juncker's GK is fairly easy to spot as it has the eye sunk pretty far into the frame, a bit like some of the postwar copies of the RK.



Unfortunately Junckers GK tooling survived the war and was used to restrike them in the 60s/70s. These are idemtical to the wartime pattern and there is no real way to tell the wartime and postwar strikes apart.

There is some anecdotal evidence that Souval may have made them also, not of course as official suppliers, but to supply museum displays etc and probably to round out their own product displays etc. Again, Souval pieces were widely manufactured after the war, so any Souval made piece is going to be treated with extreme suspicion and unlikely to attract much favour.

There is however a third known variant, definitely of the period, but so far with maker unidentified. This type is shown in Geissler's book, both as a complete item and also disassembled. This is the type which seems to have been used as the base for the first type GK with gold outer frame. This type is shown in the book on the Iron Cross produced by the Deutsches Ordensmuseum in Lüdenscheid. The case for this type is described in the book as being blue (not red with gold embossed eagle like the official piece awarded to Göring). It is in fact the same case as used for the Knights Cross of the War merit Cross but with the base design recessed to suit a GK.



This GK is similar in many respects to the Souval piece, with a few small but significant differences.
Enlargements of the relevant areas follow.

It is this cased cross, which differs somewhat to a Souval, whose makers identity is sought.
Regards,
Jay

[AlikN]

...Unfortunately Junckers GK tooling survived the war and was used to restrike them in the 60s/70s. These are idemtical to the wartime pattern and there is no real way to tell the wartime and postwar strikes apart...

It is very confusing how is that some Juncker's dies survived the bombing some not ....and some got for sure direct hit .... .......
...were there someone digging true the rubble trying to save GC dies, and you have to find whole set, for the frames and the core.... ,
...I would like to see those postwar Juncker GCs.

[Ludwig]

It is very confusing how is that some Juncker's dies survived the bombing some not ....and some got for sure direct hit .... .......
...were there someone digging true the rubble trying to save GC dies, and you have to find whole set, for the frames and the core.... ,
...I would like to see those postwar Juncker GCs.

Agree!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Unfortunately Junckers GK tooling survived the war and was used to restrike them in the 60s/70s. These are idemtical to the wartime pattern and there is no real way to tell the wartime and postwar strikes apart.

What's really "unfortunately" is that too many such unfounded rumors have been introduced into the hobby! And they survive! Most likely because it is somehow 'interesting' to quote them since it gives one the 'air of being in the know...'

The simple other questions this: if "there is no real way to tell the wartime and postwar strikes apart"... how would one know anyway? Think about it!

Same BS as the always nice to tell 'Godet restrike" and "Post war Klein diamonds".

Dietrich

[AlikN]

There are still be some difference, like always there would be a way to tell post war and prewar, even if someone got the dies, does anyone think that they also got the same content silver sheets and picked-up a few cans of original paint from the rubble.
...SEM would 'see' the paint from 60s/70s, ... and if I had the dies I'll still be making those '39GCs and we would see much more of them not just a few.

[ChrisJ]

Gc

Zimmermann definitely made a Grand Cross....but this one isnt one of those.

[tinmantis]

yes, Detlev's had a few Zimmers recently
regards
jon