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**Norm F** · 12-14-2013, 10:21 AM

Hi Hubert,

Thanks for posting. The first one you posted is another of the "six-toothed" type. So leaving that one out and ignoring the other grades that already makes five of the "accepted" pattern proficiency badges posted in this thread so far. Not seeming so rare after all, at least at the lowest grade. Probably easy to fake too with modern technology...

Best regards,
---Norm

**Jeff V** · 12-14-2013, 10:28 AM

That is a good point Norm. For a badge that was very rarely awarded there has been no shortage of them for sale on dealer sites over the years.
best wishes,
jeff

**Norm F** · 12-14-2013, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Jeff V View Post

For a badge that was very rarely awarded there has been no shortage of them for sale on dealer sites over the years.
best wishes,
jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, could be one of two scenarios. Either a lot of unissued stock of the proficiency badge was made in late wartime and was leftover at the war's end, or someone is able to make as many as they want and leak them out slowly to maintain their value. I guess it depends on how far one leans toward conspiracy theorists.

That's why there's no substitute for decent provenance and chain of ownership.

The same applies to all machine embroidered cloth insignia, but nobody cares about the possibility that a 5 Euro trade patch might be modern.

Best regards,
---Norm

**John R.** · 12-14-2013, 10:52 AM

At this point, not sure we should make too much of the "six" or "seven" tooth versions. We have so little verifiable provenance to go with.

John

**glaser** · 12-14-2013, 10:57 AM

Kriegsmarine KdK

see also:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=508633

**Jeff V** · 12-14-2013, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by glaser View Post

see also:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=508633

Interesting that the example posted in that thread on a uniform is a six toothed version.
Jeff

**Norm F** · 12-14-2013, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by John Robinson View Post

At this point, not sure we should make too much of the "six" or "seven" tooth versions. We have so little verifiable provenance to go with.

John

Hi John,

Sure, there could be both real and fake 6 and 7 tooth versions. All we have so far with provenance is a Level 1 patch from "The Kriegsmarine Awards" (maybe Ludwig's?) and a Level 3 patch from the Danish Armoury Museum, both of which have 7 teeth. Pathetically little to go on, but a start.

Quite possibly there is more in Ludwig's collection, and we don't yet know anything more about glaser's tunic photo of the 6-tooth version from the other thread (attached). Would be interesting to know more.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

Kleinkampf3.jpg (236.0 KB, 305 views)

**Norm F** · 12-14-2013, 12:09 PM

Back to the badge that started this whole discussion (that was sold on Militaria Baldes). I just noticed that it's very similar in construction to this "Level 3" badge that was discussed previously. There are obvious differences of course, but considering we're comparing two different grades, when you look at the texture of the obverse of the sawfish and the bobbin thread pattern on the reverse, I suspect they came from the same source. Or maybe a copy of a copy? (The bottom one has only 4 saw teeth.)

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**Michel** · 12-14-2013, 12:45 PM

Hello,
For the fun also, original collani found at the Kassel show with a metallic swordfish hand made.
I'm not a Kleinkampfmittel collector but this collani had a cheap price, was perfect and was a good addition for my collection.
Best regards,
Michel

.

Attached Files

20131201_124530_resized.jpg (22.6 KB, 297 views)

**John R.** · 12-17-2013, 04:54 PM

Except for Norm's attempt at analysis, we really have not much information about these patches. Nobody has been forthcoming with additional images, reverse shots, veteran groups, etc.

This is fine, but I personally see no way to verify or authenticate on this forum any of these patches due to the lack of basic analysis.

My opinion.

Chapter XVII of the Kriegsmarine Awards is good for regulations but the images in that chapter should be considered illustrative of possible period examples only.

Welcome other opinions of course, backed up by fact.

John

**John R.** · 12-17-2013, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Michel View Post

Hello,
For the fun also, original collani found at the Kassel show with a metallic swordfish hand made.
I'm not a Kleinkampfmittel collector but this collani had a cheap price, was perfect and was a good addition for my collection.
Best regards,
Michel

.

That is an interesting collani Michel.

John

**JAndrew** · 12-18-2013, 01:47 AM

I don't believe the badges in this thread have been brought forward into this discussion either:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=625319

JAndrew

**Norm F** · 12-18-2013, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by JAndrew View Post

I don't believe the badges in this thread have been brought forward into this discussion either:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=625319

JAndrew

Hi JAndrew,

The unworn patches in that thread (including the Level 3 attached here) conform to the "generally accepted" format. We have to keep in mind however that this is based solely on the comparison to the Level 3 patch previously posted by Thomas Bendixen from the Danish Armoury museum, and then extrapolated to the Level 2 patches for which no period examples with provenance have been posted. Also we are only assuming the patch from the Danish Museum is an original because Thomas reported that it had a low inventory number suggesting it was an early acquisition. This is a reasonable conclusion but it's only one example.

Other than that the only other piece with provenance posted to date is the Level 1 patch (circle without swords) with only the obverse view available (from "The Kriegsmarine Awards"). ALL other so-called "original" patches discussed in this forum have been based on extrapolation from just those two examples.

This is why this field of study is in its infancy and why anyone spending 600 Euro+ on a piece of cloth like this is either a man of faith or just naive. LIke any gamble, it may pay off if backed by research in the future or it may just be a waste of money.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**Ludwig** · 12-18-2013, 10:38 AM

**Jeff V** · 12-18-2013, 11:46 AM

There is no doubt Ludwig that you have participated in many threads. What I don't understand is why you are unwilling to help increase everyones knowledge of these patches by posting your vet groups and provenance. Do you think that it is some badge of honor that you are the only person who knows anything about these patches? Are you deliberately trying to make sure that there is not much known about these things so you can increase your own collection of them? I just don't understand why someone would act the way you are.

jeff

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