LW General White Top Visor

[stonemint]

See how the flanges on the grommet lay flat, and the venting goes straight thru?

One other thing I forgot to mention. I would expect a ribbing to the rayon lining panels as well (as shown on this one).

[stonemint]

Grommet & "ribbing" comparison:

[stonemint]

Karl's vented Erel Generals grommet--his has a bullion cockade. (I cannot find a LW vented metal cockade Erel, and at this moment, cannot ever recall seeing one). Also, on the one that started this thread, there is no pasteboard backing material as here:

[stonemint]

Here is a WH vent, and the LW general--note the strange mesh attachment of the LW, and what appears to be a silver (or chromed) grommet behind the mesh:

[stonemint]

One last thing. The leather sweatband has a "wavy" appearance, and the connection does not appear to line up with the rear of the cap. This indicates (to me at least) a transplant:

[R.Beck]

One last thing. The leather sweatband has a "wavy" appearance, and the connection does not appear to line up with the rear of the cap. This indicates (to me at least) a transplant:

The pleat in the front or the lack thereof would concern me. Spot on about the wavy sweatband

[stonemint]

Also forgot to mention Erel sewed their Schwingen thru the lining as well--not just the eagle, as per this one:

[Dai]

Since I was specifically asked for my opinion, I will give it.
Here is what concerns me:

1. This is an early cap, but has a metal (instead of bullion) cockade.
2. There is a lack of overhang and padding to the cap.
3. The cockade screen appears to be misapplied, and appears to have a silver exterior grommet (as viewed thru the mesh).
4. The eagle is not sewn thru the lining. I have yet to see an Erel with a sewn on eagle not sewn thru the lining.
5. The wool body of the cap--it appears to be a rougher type of doeskin that I have seen in other high-end wool white-tops.
6. The vent appears blocked
7. Hard to tell, but it appears the brass of the grommet on the interior may have been re-crimped.

I will qualify and say that these concerns are based on pics alone, and only an in-hand will tell the tale.

Mate, thank you for your opinion,
the visor is not mine, I just can't agree with you entirely.
As a general rank, there is no "absolute feature" in uniform or headgear,
just as the case that you can't find two Heer general's visors in entire same feature,
and, we can even find a Heer GFM's shoulder board using a LW style batton device,
that to say, general's uniform and headgear have a very wide acceptable range.

In many cases, these general's headgears are order made, so the "feature" depends on the tailor, not the factory line,
in such a sence, I can't agree with your 1,3,4,6 above,
even for officer rank (not general rank)'s visors which were from same maker and produced in same period,
we can usually see different shapes and several variations of wool,
and especially, general's visor always shows a conservative shape,
so I can't agree with your 2,5 above and don't think there is any mean to have a comparing with your officer rank's visor.

[R.Beck]

One last thing. The leather sweatband has a "wavy" appearance, and the connection does not appear to line up with the rear of the cap. This indicates (to me at least) a transplant:

The pleat in the front or the lack thereof would concern me. Spot on about the wavy sweatband

[Dai]

Here is a WH vent, and the LW general--note the strange mesh attachment of the LW, and what appears to be a silver (or chromed) grommet behind the mesh:

Just feel odd, if you're the guy who made this "fake", why didn't you use an original Heer cockade directly? It will obviously save your time to make a fake mesh and make things perfect.

[Karl S.]

I must agree with stonmint. Erel caps all have very similar construction characteristics.
With all the red flags I wouldn't want this in my collection.

[JasonA]

Hi Dai,

Thanks for posting this visor and encouraging thoughtful discussion. It's always interesting, for sure.

To your point, when discussing and assessing custom pieces, there are certain tolerances we must be flexible around as collectors. There were tremendous variations in wool quality, construction, and weave (as you suggested) among visor tops - even private-purchase OR/NCO and officer visors. So it's certainly reasonable to expect differences in custom pieces. After all, that's the definition of custom. And a visor like this would certainly have been a custom order.

The white top officer visor shown here is attributed to Goring's chief aide, von Brauchitsch. That aside, the visor taken alone is the most custom Luftwaffe visor I've ever seen, general rank or otherwise. It has many features which mirror Goring's visor, including a super fine wool top, a cream base which matches the cream top, and a tan leather underbill. Even then, the visor still holds true to many of the typical Erel construction nuances. I.e., when cutting the silk to be used for the liner, it was cut a certain way; provisions for the vented cockade were cut a certain way; etc.

Furthermore, one wouldn't expect to see certain nuances in an early Erel visor - especially a custom piece (a wavy sweatband in the general's piece here, for example).

I don't collect Heer, so I don't know if this is a Heer cockade or not. A metal vented cockade doesn't both me at all. But, if it's neither a Heer or Luftwaffe cockade, what is it, and where else have we seen it? It doesn't make sense, custom order or not, that any Erel employee would have used a cockade different from any other they had in stock, Heer/Luftwaffe/etc. Certainly one wouldn't have been made.

I don't know that the padding/overhang is a deal breaker, as there is tremendous variation here among Luftwaffe visors. I'm on the fence about the eagle stitching: it seems like most Erels were stitched a certain way, so I would expect the same here.

I have the highest respect for stonemint because he is not only an advanced collector, but he studies visors inside and out. Most collectors don't drill down to this level of detail. While this level of detail can bog down a collector to where he can't see the forest for the trees, in this case, he's inspected enough visors by varied makers with such a level of detail that certain consistencies by maker are illuminated. While I don't agree that everything he lists is deal-breaker, I don't think he considers any one point to be, either. All in all, they are good points and compel a deeper review of this visor.

It may be that each of us will never know conclusively about this general's visor until it's in hand. And even then, it may be that a certain amount has to be taken on faith by it's current owner. This hobby still has much subjectivity, and collectors will not always agree. Ultimately it's our own individual collecting criteria which is most important.

Best regards,

Jason

[Langemark]

If I may just add a "point 8" to Stonemint's list :

8. The Schwingen (oakleaves/wings) are sewn completely off level. I would have expected a more careful application of these ...

Mark

[stonemint]

Another one by the same maker (or should I say faker?):

[stonemint]

& another