Unorthodox and rare MP40 pouch

[Bergflak]

Sinse this picture has allready been posted by clint-magnum in another thread I take the liberty of reposting it here.

Note that the pouch has the same carrying strap as discussed above. Compare the friction buckle with the one at the SS-officers neck! Unfortunately, we are unable to see the clip buckles on this picture, but I highly suspect they will be of the civilian type we can see in the two periode pictures I have posted. There is no doubt that the sling in fact is a MG ammunition band.
Also note the sloppy sewing of the closing strap and the fact that the leather strap is a reused strap for a pin-buckle.

[Sonnenwende]

Is it possible to see a closeup of the stitching on the top of that pouch closing strap in the first Photo (the one where the Soldier has turned his back to the camera) Bergflak?

Regards Sonnenwende

[Bergflak]

This is the best I can do.

And yes, it is very much like the others pictured. Sloppy sewing and sloppy cut leather.

[Sonnenwende]

Thanks. Well from the evidence so far shown, it sure looks like the pouches (both your 3 cell) and the 6-cells presented are all WW2 made - and in a hurry!

Have you got any history on your 3-cell?

Regards Sonnenwende

[LOTHRINGEN]

IMO, strap used on my 6 mag pouch is from US MG belt fabric,
and this kind of pouch is an early version and quite hard to find smile wink

here are few pics of the reverse ... i already shared them and my point of view with Mr ROGER (CLINT MAGNUM) !

[LOTHRINGEN]

More

[Bergflak]

Here is a comparison of the pouches allready posted both here and in the other thread. Both the use of MG ammo-belts, the strange rivets and the very sloppy sewing of the belt loops are identical on these pouches. Lothrings pouch seems to have been treated better by the manufacturer, as the straps are sewn on much nicer.
Seems to be beyound doubt that:
1. These pouches existed early in the war
2. They do not confirm to standard German production, but have seen widespread use by German troops
3. Both 3 cell and 6 cell pouches were made by the same manufacturer
4. They are made from captured materials. The MG-bands of course, but also the leather and possibly some of the canvas is non-German.

[Bergflak]

Thanks. Well from the evidence so far shown, it sure looks like the pouches (both your 3 cell) and the 6-cells presented are all WW2 made - and in a hurry!

Have you got any history on your 3-cell?

Regards Sonnenwende

The 3 cell pouch was found in a cardboard box containg approx 99 original German WW2 made MP40 pouches. (15 years ago, none left, don't ask!) The box came from the Norwegian army, so my first thought was that the pouch was a Norwegian arsenal product, but I have never seen any like it up here. Then I found the picture of the soldier with his back to the camera, and I remembered the WSS officer with the strange pouch, and then stumbled upon the 6-pouch cell thread. I was certain that the pouch was a postwar product when I got it, but I am now firm in the belief that it was made as a replacement/ersatz pouch in occupied western Europe in 1940/1941. (Which makes sense, of all the MP40 pouches I have owned and seen very few are older than 1941!)

[Bergflak]

Why couldn't the box have contained both Norwegian used German WWII pouches and those made after the war, of a similiar pattern (which we know was done), for use by the Norwegian military/ police?

Actually IMO, the comments and items here strengthen my belief that these pouches (with the US ammo belt webbing, rivets, and sloppy construction) are postwar Norwegian made and used items.

Reread the post you are reffering to. I actually was CONVINCED that the pouch in question was just that; a Norwegian postwar made pouch. And strangely enough, if it was indeed Norwegian we would have seen plenty of them, but we don't. Not even a single 6-cell pouch....

And even more interesting; your post of 05-10-2011, 01:10 AM in the other thread you seem to approve of them, while they are now no good!?

Interesting information Roger! Nice work and thanks for psoting all the photos.

But, how do we know the earlier ones were not also intended for armored crews?

[Sonnenwende]

Well, are we sure these straps on the back are made from american WW1/2 ammo belts?

Other armies used machine guns with similar cartridge cloth belts, including the polish army in 1939 (Ckm wz.30 = Browning M1917 machine gun clone)... The could have been captured there? The Norwegian army used the Colt M/29 clone of the M1917 in 1940. Both weapons in different calibers from the US-version, but it still does not rule out that the germans captured the belts there. I don´t know myself, but in even if they are american belts, in principle both armies/others could have used them for their machine guns.

Regards Sonnenwende

[clint-magnum]

Hello Gents ,
For my part , not easy to say who produced the 6 cell but for sure they
are VERY early wwII produced (maybe 1938-1939...?) . The pics prove that
they do exist . Mine came uncleaned from a house in Poland .
(just my 2 cents )

[Bergflak]

Surely, you can't believe that in this day and age of collecting. Maybe up in Norway (with all due respect). What about all of the '43 and '44 dated 3-cell and 6-cell MP40 pouches?

What about the 43 and 44 dated pouches?
I stated that there are VERY few pouches that are OLDER than 1941. I have seen just a few with 1940 dates and none with 1938 or 1939 dates. It stands to reason that the supply system can't always balance the introduction of a new weapon with matching pouches. See how many pictures you can find of MP44 equipped soldiers that actually carries a pair of pouches! There are very few.
Ersatz production to battle the need for officially manufactured products is not unheard of. Field made rucksacks, and camouflage tunics to mention a few.

[Bergflak]

In your opinion it is beyond doubt. Not in mine. I don't agree with the logic. Mixing apples and oranges when it is convenient, and ignoring it when it doesn't fit.

Ok, could you be more precise?

When did the Germans capture US webbing? We are seeing early photos of the use of the single strap pouches. Are the straps in the early photos US webbing?

Impossible to say if they are US Webbing for sure, but that is beside the point actually. The pictures clearly show that the web straps are ammunition belts of a non-German type. The German captured a lot of British, Belgian, French, Dutch, Polish, Cz, Austrian etc equipment. Which of these nations had which type of MG I am unable to tell you. Maybe some had the M1919A4, maybe some made similar belts for another type of MG. But the re-use of the straps seems to be well enough documented, unless you are leaning toward the fact that all of the paratrooper pictures are staged and faked as well.

Is sloppy sewing and leather something we see on early German field gear?

Not at all. I am familiar with the materials used and the quality of the craftmanship, as well as the manufacturing techniques one can expect to find on all dates of this stuff. And I am not stating that these pouches are WW2 German factory made. I am of the opinion that they have been hastily made by a arsenal or unit taylor, or even in a local factory in a occupied country without the quality control of the WaA inspectors.
This is not "early German field gear", these are ersatz products that doesn't comply to what we are used to see.

[giorgios]

these straps came out of original german army ammo wooden crates..
there is another threat here..the "waffenentgiftungmittel" is the title...go to
post #5# by the member GRAN SASSO and you will see in his picture
german crates with those white handles

[LOTHRINGEN]

PLease Give the exact link... I didn t manage to find it