EK I S&L Opinions - Post War?

[George Stimson]

It's not a can of worms -- it's just an interesting discussion. And that's what we're here for!

[Robert P.]

I also have this same hardware on a marked S&L EKI. And, I have no reason to believe it is a postwar cross. Here are some photos...

Robert

[Robert P.]

The core...

[bytown]

Looks like an exact match to mine.

Thanks Robert.

Wayne

[Robert P.]

Wayne,

They used this same type hinge on their flak and GA badges.

Robert

[George Stimson]

And, in the interests of full disclosure, I own one of these too. (And I also own a TR-era made 1914 S&L EK 1 with the same reverse set-up, very dull paint, and no PKZ number on the pin.)

[Luftm40]

IMO, some of the crosses w/ the fixtures mentioned in this thread are most certainly post war made (from leftover parts, probably by SL for the early post war occupation market). But there may be wartime examples w/ these fittings as well. The "issues" w/ SL extend beyond the RK IMO. George, I would consider your cross to be post war. These typically have crude soldering and also lack the frosting and finish found on wartime awards. The version posted by Robert may be a wartime example. Again, this is all just my opinion. Also, regarding the markings, L/11 marks can be found on 1957 EK1s. The 4 mark is not a firm indicator of wartime vs postwar IMO.....

Also, the first cross in this thread has a finish that, to my eye, looks like a 57 version (glittery). I think it is post war as well.

And, in the interests of full disclosure, I own one of these too. (And I also own a TR-era made 1914 S&L EK 1 with the same reverse set-up, very dull paint, and no PKZ number on the pin.)

[Leroy]

I believe you almost have to have these in hand to properly judge. There is no question but that S&L (and/or its employees, working from their homes in many cases) assembled pieces postwar from existing stock (including parts already marked with the "4"). The key, as Andy points out, is in the way these postwar pieces were put together and finished. After May, 1945, there was no need to meet any quality standards.

[George Stimson]

Fair enough!

[bytown]

Thanks Andy.

Very interesting. Now I'm in a quandary as to whether I send the cross back or
not.

The back of mine is definitely shiny like the 57's.

Wayne

[Robert P.]

Just an observation - the 9:00 arms on Wayne's and George's crosses are heavily flawed, where mine shows no flaws whatsoever.

Robert

[Luftm40]

It helps to put the post war production issue in context. I also collect US militaria. Many very early German occupation US groups (I'm talking 46-49) contain insignia, patches and ribbon bars made by prolific TR era makers. Assmann, BEVO...you name it, and often completely maker marked. I recently saw a set of early occupation made US enamel DUIs (Distinctive Unit Insignia) made from the reused planchets of NSDAP party badges, complete w/ the RZM markings on the back. German makers adapted very quickly to new markets when the war ended. IMO, TR badges and medals were produced in large numbers during the early occupation era. The "it was illegal" argument is a very tenuous thread from which to dangle! Again, all just my opinion!

[bytown]

Just an observation - the 9:00 arms on Wayne's and George's crosses are heavily flawed, where mine shows no flaws whatsoever.

Robert

The lower arm also has a few small flaws that can be seen under the loop.

Doubt if they show up in my scan.

The block hinge is raised slightly and does not touch the cross.

Soldering is relatively neat and not messy at all.

Wayne

[Luftm40]

Just an observation - the 9:00 arms on Wayne's and George's crosses are heavily flawed, where mine shows no flaws whatsoever.

Robert

I noticed it too, but left that part out


oh GOD, here we go

[Robert P.]

It helps to put the post war production issue in context. I also collect US militaria. Many very early German occupation US groups (I'm talking 46-49) contain insignia, patches and ribbon bars made by prolific TR era makers. Assmann, BEVO...you name it, and often completely maker marked. I recently saw a set of early occupation made US enamel DUIs (Distinctive Unit Insignia) made from the reused planchets of NSDAP party badges, complete w/ the RZM markings on the back. German makers adapted very quickly to new markets when the war ended. IMO, TR badges and medals were produced in large numbers during the early occupation era. The "it was illegal" argument is a very tenuous thread from which to dangle! Again, all just my opinion!

Food for thought indeed...

One of my closest friend's father was a supply sergeant in postwar Germany. He sent home many 3' X 3' white 'card paper' boards with misc. German badges and medals attached to them. Interestingly, they were all in mint condition. I can't help but think these 'trophies' were produced postwar to feed the demand which certainly existed. Of our cherished mint examples we have in our collections today, how many fall into this scenario?

Robert