Panzerabzeichen Legion Condor

[Norm F]

I had a conversation with the Herrn Nimmergut for PAB LC a few months ago. He told me that all the pieces were from Spain came in brass cast. Only in Germany were probably also produced pieces in silver (Juncker type) he is of opinion it was Meybauer. But I think it was not a genuine silver but new silver.

Just as my piece is.

Greeting LC

Hans günter

Hi Hans Günter,

I think the Juncker badges as shown in post #28 are neusilber. These are high quality and later and therefore not relevant to this discussion on Type 1 badges.

I think the Meybauer badges like the one you show in post #16 are made of Tombak. These also are high quality and later and so are not relevant to this discussion.

But back to Type 1, 1st pattern badges from Spain. If these were all brass then where does that leave the two badges shown here? These are Type 1, 1st pattern badges but are not brass and are clearly cast, not struck. The Niemann badge was supposedly attributed to an "Unteroffizier Pocecek" (which Jacques thought was a misspelling of Poloczek who did serve in Spain). If Nimmergut is right then either these are both fakes or they were some castings were ordered from Germany (which doesn't make much sense). But if Nimmergut is mistaken then these were made in Portugal or Spain.

And the silver metal Type 1, 2nd pattern badges like yours from the top of the thread and the others I posted earlier also look too crude to have been produced in Germany.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Side-by-side comparison of the 1st pattern in two different metals. So where were these made?

[Norm F]

Here is the original image of Scherl picture service 08/03/1939, this is what you see in the uniform market. It served as a template.
Who has produced this piece is not released.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

Hi Hans Günter,

I think you made a mistake there. The obverse of the period photograph you show is the one from the Paul Zündorf grouping and should not be paired with the reverse of the Scherl photo. You meant to show this one which was the one used for Uniformen-Markt and which shows a vertical pin on the badge.

They're both photos of very similar 2nd pattern badges which is how you mixed them up. I already showed both photos compared side-by-side in post #17.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Hans Günter,

Here's the 2nd pattern badge you posted earlier that you called an "original", here compared with the period pre-war photographs. An excellent match to the Zündorf badge and the pin looks similar to the photo used in Uniformen-Markt. Despite being a 2nd pattern badge this is still called "Type 1" because it's not mass produced post-August, 1939 by a German company like Juncker, Schickle, Meybauer, etc.

So the unanswered questions that remain regarding this type (2nd pattern) are a) was it made in Germany or in Spain/Portugal? and b) what exactly is the base metal - silver or neusilber?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The Hermann-Historica badge is the same type as that one, and the catch looks similar as well. In the catalog it was described as "in Silber, hohlgeprägt".

[Legion Condor]

Hi Hans Günter,

Here's the 2nd pattern badge you posted earlier that you called an "original", here compared with the period pre-war photographs. An excellent match to the Zündorf badge and the pin looks similar to the photo used in Uniformen-Markt. Despite being a 2nd pattern badge this is still called "Type 1" because it's not mass produced post-August, 1939 by a German company like Juncker, Schickle, Meybauer, etc.

So the unanswered questions that remain regarding this type (2nd pattern) are a) was it made in Germany or in Spain/Portugal? and b) what exactly is the base metal - silver or neusilber?

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

no, that is not the P: Zuendorf photo. This is the front of the photo archive.

And that's not the 1 model Spain. But a German model.

Also see again very well the the piece of Hermann Historica model is a stamped and not cast as I already showed the comparison. And again a replaced needle system. As they occur almost always. Not this very question needle system as it is shown in my piece.

This Varinate must not be referred to as Model 1, it differs from the secured Spain 1 model. One can very well see the facial bones right.

I'm sure there is a German model, the quality differs from the 1 model very strongly from Spain.

Greeting LC
Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

hello,

I think we can not with A, B, c or Type 1, 2, etc. denote the variants.

In my book, I have listed the variants such as Work or to the variant.

1. Spanish AWARD piece (cast)
2. Unknown German manufacturer (stamped, not cast)
3. Juncker (punched)
4. Meybauer (punched)
5. O.Schickle (punched)

6. S & L (stamped) (deleted Wiedmann) originality not secured for me and very doubtful!

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Norm F]

no, that is not the P: Zuendorf photo. This is the front of the photo archive.

Hi Hans Günter,

It's important to clear up this misunderstanding. You may be right but I'm not sure. In the past the obverse of that photo was posted as being a photo of Zündorf's badge here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=173940. And Jacques had posted the Uniformen-Markt photo (with the visible vertical pin setup along with that reverse "Scherl" photo saying it was a period press photo from 3.8.39 (which is why I assumed they went together).

When you compare your obverse to the reverse of the archival "Scherl" photo the proportions are different. Now this might be because the right side of the photo of the reverse is cut off from the photo, but I can't be sure. I've resized them to the same height and placed one image on top of the other to show the difference in width.

Have you seen the photo in real life?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

In my book, I have listed the variants such as Work or to the variant.

1. Spanish AWARD piece (cast)
2. Unknown German manufacturer (stamped, not cast)

Hi Hans Günter,

So if I understand you correctly, are you now saying that these two badges are fake? They are 2nd pattern but look cast, not stamped.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Again some comparisons. All "2nd pattern" badges. Are the badges on the left-hand side a Spanish-made variant or are they cast reproductions of the badges on the right?

[Norm F]

And the obverse. The obverses of the badges look excellent, so it's the reverses that separate them out. I'm unable to draw any conclusions from these.

We're struggling here to say what are genuine "2nd pattern" badges -- the ones on the left, the ones on the right, or both, or neither? Some have to be original because we have the two separate period photos from 1939 that clearly show "2nd pattern" badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

no, that is not the P: Zuendorf photo. This is the front of the photo archive.

Hi Hans Günter,

It's important to clear up this misunderstanding. You may be right but I'm not sure. In the past the obverse of that photo was posted as being a photo of Zündorf's badge here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=173940. And Jacques had posted the Uniformen-Markt photo (with the visible vertical pin setup along with that reverse "Scherl" photo saying it was a period press photo from 3.8.39 (which is why I assumed they went together).

When you compare your obverse to the reverse of the archival "Scherl" photo the proportions are different. Now this might be because the right side of the photo of the reverse is cut off from the photo, but I can't be sure. I've resized them to the same height and placed one image on top of the other to show the difference in width.

I found another copy of the reverse photo which isn't cut off. These definitely are NOT the same photo since they have different proportions.

As said before, I believe the "Scherl" photo is the reverse of the photo used in Uniformen-Markt.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

And the obverse. The obverses of the badges look excellent, so it's the reverses that separate them out. I'm unable to draw any conclusions from these.

We're struggling here to say what are genuine "2nd pattern" badges -- the ones on the left, the ones on the right, or both, or neither? Some have to be original because we have the two separate period photos from 1939 that clearly show "2nd pattern" badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi norm,

what was only because the egg or the chicken!

If both pieces of the front are equal to 100%, but punched from the rear one and the other molded.

Then there remains only the result, which has served the punched piece as a template.

Also this is very unusual for an industrial product fact the needle system, show all 3 pieces if one still expects of Weitze.

From a cast they can copy a hard gestantztes.
At least not in such a perfect unit.

I know 4 pieces of the variant and all appeared in Hamburg.

The by Hermann Historica and the other thing I was replaced with the needle system are original, with the other I have very strong doubts.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

I found another copy of the reverse photo which isn't cut off. These definitely are NOT the same photo since they have different proportions.

As said before, I believe the "Scherl" photo is the reverse of the photo used in Uniformen-Markt.

Best regards,
---Norm

It is not so important! Showing the same pieces.
I got it so.

This is the right to the press photo. I swapped, but the piece remains the same.
This is not part of what this important front. It is important that these are the same pieces and we can compare real pieces with it.

Greeting LC



Hans Günter

[Norm F]

I found another copy of the reverse photo which isn't cut off. These definitely are NOT the same photo since they have different proportions.

As said before, I believe the "Scherl" photo is the reverse of the photo used in Uniformen-Markt.

These are the photos that should go together. The obverse is a scan but the reverse is a photograph. The scanner cut off the bottom but the same wrinkle can be seen in the corner.

So this is the press photo used in August 15, 1939 issue of Uniformen-Markt.

Best regards,
---Norm