U-boat by fo Wien sub-types

[Norm F]

And now here are two exceptions to the rules.

The first is a Type 1 posted, previously by Tom, but instead of the mark slanting downwards as is usual, this one slants upwards.

The second is a Type 2 mark but the mark is placed lower than usual (while the "o" stamp is higher than usual). Also, the cutout under the sub is like a Type 1 badge. Not sure what to make of this one.

[Mike Coleman]

Norm,
Thank you for gathering up all those pics for comparison. Is there a way to do an overlay to see if the marks are all the same size? I guess we may never know why there were three different reverses to these badges. I just hope they are all period! I do think they are.
Mike

[John Henderson]

I notice on the one I posted a small lump half way along the bilge keel where it meets the hull of the boat. Perhaps from casting?


Could this be proof its a reproduction??


regards John[/QUOTE]

[Mike Coleman]

John,
I think if you look at the other pics you will see this same feature on several of the badges. It looks like it may be a die flaw on the obverse - perhaps a chipped corner. It looks a lot cleaner on some badges v. others meaning on some there is a definite triangle imprinted on the reverse side while on others it is very ill-defined. One thing I would ask is looking at the front where the hull meets the keel right below the conning tower-is that a metal blob of a shadow I am seeing?
Mike

[John Henderson]

Hi Mike,
I have looked at other badges and I dont see this same lump, I mention in my post.
The lump I am mentioning is on the obverse half way along the bilge keel. As you mention in your last post, under the conning tower.
regards John

[Mike Coleman]

John,
Yup, that is the same one I am wondering about too. Could this be a new type of repro? If it is they are getting pretty darn good. The two things I see on this badge that I question is that blob of metal at the keel and the vertical line after the "f" on the maker's mark. I wonder what others feel about this?
Mike

[John Henderson]

Hi again Mike, actually, have a look at the obverse eagle wing on the lefthand side, on the top "feather". It looks like a small bump/ circle which corresponds with the "dent on the reverse. Could this be from a mould, inlet and outlet for the casting process. Maybe I am miles out here??
Have a look and see what you think.
regards John

[Mike Coleman]

I really don't know John. I noted that in the photos on the reverse but just thought it was some discoloration in the finish. I guess one would have to look down on the edge to get a better idea. I do note the little dimple on the obverse now that you mention it. I think these are things better assessed with it in hand rather than in a photo. I do a fair amount of model making and cast my own parts at times and I can tell you from a gravity casting stand point that would be a strange place to start a pour. Usually you want to do it from the highest point so you don't trap air in the mold. So the top of the eagle's head would be the best place to do a pour. That would be true for spin casting as well if the entire mold where to spin centrifugally. The other place would be the very bottom of the wreath and cast it upside down. If you were to spin mold on a flat axis through the mid part of the badge then the best pour site would be the reverse at the center of the u-boat. This could represent an area where material did not fill the mold and was filled in or repaired after it was pulled but that is really a lot of conjecture on my part.
Mike

[John Henderson]

Thanks Mike.
Interesting facts about pouring material into moulds. I have not bought the badge as there was too much to leave to chance. Besides the seller never got back with daylight shots.

regards John

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I'm just updating the Friedrich Orth U-Boat badge classification thread to hopefully make it a bit more useful as a reference thread for the different sub-types.

Let me start by re-uploading John Henderson's badge from the start of the thread with some color correction applied, and commenting that it appears to be a perfectly fine Type 1 f.o. badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And now a re-iteration of the 3 separate types based upon reverse dies and setup:

Type 1: horizontal pin badges without the "o" stamp; wide cross-bar on the 'f'; mark is low down and slightly down-slanting; narrower cutouts under the sub compared with types 2 and 3.

Type 2: horizontal pin badges with the "o" stamp; medium length cross-bar on the 'f'; mark is higher up; the "o" stamp on the central lower part of the reverse varies in position and is not a part of the reverse die

Type 3: vertical pin badges with the "o" stamp; narrow cross-bar on the 'f'; the stylized slanted periods after the initials are shorter and closer to the letters; mark is low down but not down-slanting like Type 1; the stamped "o" mark is on the left edge of the reverse

All three types have the same oval sheet metal hinge and "question mark"-shaped catch soldered into the badge without base plate. (The catch shown here is from a Type 1 badge.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Type 1: horizontal pin badges without the "o" stamp; wide cross-bar on the 'f'; mark is low down and slightly down-slanting; narrower cutouts under the sub compared with types 2 and 3.

Example:

[Norm F]

Type 2: horizontal pin badges with the "o" stamp; medium length cross-bar on the 'f'; mark is higher up; the "o" stamp on the central lower part of the reverse varies in position and is not a part of the reverse die

Example:

[Norm F]

Type 3: vertical pin badges with the "o" stamp; narrow cross-bar on the 'f'; the stylized slanted periods after the initials are shorter and closer to the letters; mark is low down but not down-slanting like Type 1; the stamped "o" mark is on the left edge of the reverse

Example:

[JAndrew]

Norm,
Excellent summation. I hope this gets pinned somewhere for easy future reference.
JAndrew