High Seas Fleet Badge - Vet Pickup - Help Identifying Maker

[Colorado]

Thanks for the input. Not that anyone would doubt he was from the 398th, but here is a copy of a document the family allowed me to make.

This hospital discharge details the circumstances of his gun shot wound in France and shows his regiment of assignment.

I have blacked out his name, date he was wounded and the Company to protect the family privacy.

[Colorado]

Hi Norm - Since the Narvik pictured here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...56#post4737256

and the Police Long Service Medals in the Vet grouping are also in unissued condition, is it possible there is connection to them? Birds of feather so to speak.

As you see, I posted the Narvik for opinions as to the maker and came up with nothing. All I found was was these shields listed by "type" not maker unless I missed something.

[Colorado]

EUREKA! I just made a discovery! The Police medals and the EK2 are marked "76", and not "16" as I had originally thought. The direct evidence to Pforzheim exists!

The maker "76" is Ernst L. Muller Pforzheim!

[Colorado]

Interesting thread on Muller, the similarities there:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...r+PforzheimDie

Flaw forming for a broken stem? See Post #7

[Colorado]

Here are a couple photos of the 76 mark on the Police Long Service Medals. In the Vet grouping there was also an unissued KVM medal with ribbon.

Notice the ring on the gold Police medal is identical in color and shape to the unmarked KVM.

[Colorado]

Next is a better photo of the EK than I had previously posted. The 76 is much more distinct.

[Norm F]

Hi Jeff,

While the Müller link is interesting to support the idea of all the collection coming from Pforzheim, it doesn't necessarily mean all the items were made by Müller.

Souvenir boards in occupied Lüdenscheid contained badges from various Lüdenscheid makers so that although S&L predominated, different makers were represented.

The same thing is possible here with a collection of Pforzheim makers being represented, including Müller.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Jeff,

Although I think we are on the right track for a Pforzheim maker being behind teh flatback badges, Ernst Muller doesn't seem like a good candidate to me due to the fact that we already know of Muller IABs (which are a completely different design as the flatbacks). Both the Muller IABs and the Flatback IABs are later-war zinc-based badges, so it is unlikely that these were a progression from a single maker IMO. Hardware on both is similar, but certainly not identical in any big way and Muller IABs don't have the characteristic grind marks on the reverse like most of the flatback badges seem to have. All this points to two different makers and two different production techniques IMO.

But Norm brings up a good point, that with Pforzheim being bombed out late in the war, we can't exclude the possiblity that Muller might have retooled and created a new IAB design in addition to their previous one.

Tom

[Norm F]

...
But Norm brings up a good point, that with Pforzheim being bombed out late in the war, we can't exclude the possiblity that Muller might have retooled and created a new IAB design in addition to their previous one.

Tom

But not just Müller -- it could be any Pforzheim maker forced to re-tool. The flatbacks seem too crude to be an early or even mid-war product and yet they cover almost the full spectrum of Heer and KM badges which may suggest that a pre-existing big producer with a wide line of badges was forced to re-tool late in the war. Either that or a new producer got into the act very late in the war with a new wide range of badges including even the U-Boat and Auxiliary Cruiser badges -- a scenario which seems less likely unless it was purely for the post-war souvenir market. But if Jeff's vet got his badges before or in May, 1945, that suggests this large producer started during wartime.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Both the Muller IABs and the Flatback IABs are later-war zinc-based badges, so it is unlikely that these were a progression from a single maker IMO.
Tom

Why not Tom?

In the Daisy - Deumer thread you wrote that Deumer decided to change the full design of their badges in a production change, so why not the same thing with Müller? Would be a logical conclusion based on that what you have written in the Deumer thread.

They were swichting from hollow to massive and decided to make a new design.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Andreas,

Simply put, Muller already has a solid IABs design. The hollow Muller IABs and the solid Muller-marked IABs share the same design, so there is a logical progression there. That is the big difference with the Deumer IABs. Deumer had a logical die change when they switched to solid-back construction.

I don't see a logical progression from Muller's solid design to another solid design (the flatback badges). Furthermore, there is not mixture of reverse hardware that I see. Muller hardware is different than the flatback hardware.

With that said, I am not ruling out Muller 100%, but it seems unlikely that they were the maker behind the flatback just because there is so much that sets them apart.

Tom

[Graeme]

But not just Müller -- it could be any Pforzheim maker forced to re-tool.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm

Are you aware of any manufacturers that definitely re-tooled and re-started production near the end of the war. I have heard this idea crop up many times in threads, but for me it seems a very unlikely scenario.
I would appreciate any info you have on this.

regards
Graeme

[Norm F]

Hi Norm

Are you aware of any manufacturers that definitely re-tooled and re-started production near the end of the war. I have heard this idea crop up many times in threads, but for me it seems a very unlikely scenario.
I would appreciate any info you have on this.

regards
Graeme

Hi Graeme,

As you know, this is a thread of speculation based on circumstantial evidence -- this is all we can do in the absence of documented history of the firms involved, but it is a very interesting exercise.

Of all the cities of major production of Kriegsmarine badges, only Pforzheim was so thoroughly bombed out. The rubble of the B.H. Mayer firm was photographed in 1945 and is displayed on their current website. Lüdenscheid and Vienna were virtually unscathed.

(Juncker in Berlin apparently had more than one address and at least one of them was bombed out, and interestingly again the badge forensics there suggest the possibility of late war changes in die design, with the appearance of some unknown zincers with Juncker-like features. Of course, there's no documented proof -- just circumstantial evidence and postulated theory to fit the observations.)

Looking at the badges, the complete line of flatback zinc Kriegsmarine badges is of crude quality, matches the Pforzheim makers' obverse designs and often has a texture and finish very much like late war F&B badges (which differ in finish from mid-war F&B badges).

The circumstantial evidence, combined with Jeff's findings, overwhelmingly favors Pforzheim as the source of the flatbacks. In view of that, the two choices are:

1) A maker who never made war badges suddenly tooled up for producing a complete line of Heer and Kriegsmarine badges of poor quality near the end of the war, including badges no longer in high demand like the U-boat and Auxiliary Cruiser badge for example.

2) A pre-existing maker of a wide line of war badges war forced to change their production values significantly in late war, resulting in the flatbacks.

By Occam's razor, theory number 2 is a more likely scenario than the first. Is it just a coincidence that these crude badges appear to come from Pforzheim, and Pforzheim was the only city of KM badge production city so thoroughly bombed?

For me, having stared at images of flatbacks for most of the past year, again and again I get the impression of production over a period of time -- some of which seems post-war. The most likely working theory to cover all the observations was a Pforzheim maker with low production values commencing in late war and continuing on post-war in the same manner as S&L and Souval but without the benefit of the intact tooling facilities enjoyed by S&L and Souval.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Adrian]

Guys, sorry to cut in here but Jeff's medals aren't marked for Ernst Muller. Muller marked his EKs with an incuse stamp, many examples of which can be seen here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...6&highlight=76
The markings on the above medals are, IMO, '16' as originally thought.

[Colorado]

Thanks, that's a long stroke for German style "1". Which is what I originally thought. Both, the 6 and the 1 (or 7) run at an angle to the ring not straight up and down. Until I turned to where they both are in line with each other, the "7" looked like a an exaggerated German style "1".

That said, what is strange his unit stopped prior to reaching the area of Schwaebisch Gmund where number 16 Alols Rettenmaler is made. In fact, it's in another Army Corps sector. Which would be different than regiments mixing together.

That said, the Mother's Cross Case is from Schwaebisch Gmund, but unmarked mini's inside I had dismissed like the other random medals/badges that look to have been worn and used.

I am not going to pretend to be a badge expert, so, I ask is it possible the "16" mark is actually "76"? If Muller was retooling, this was there "new" 76 stamp? That is pretty uncommon for stroke like that to make a "1" on a ring. Is there a documented "16" to compare against? That would help.