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**inimicus** · 12-17-2009, 11:46 PM

smirky devils, ain't they!

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**Gerdan** · 12-18-2009, 01:26 AM

The German text:

Liebe Elter - Dear parents
das sind Englische Gef(angene) - this are English POWs
die hier am 7. Sept abgesch(.ossen) wurden- who where shot down here the 7th Sept

Gerdan

**Simon O.** · 12-18-2009, 07:54 AM

With a date of 7th Sept. it should be possible to at least narrow down who they are, their arcraft, squadron etc.

Clearly the crew from a bomber

**inimicus** · 12-18-2009, 11:11 AM

thanks chaps! I'll look into it. maybe the imperial war museum can help

again, does this look like an original foto postcard (or one of thousands repro'd be the germans in the period?) plus why a customs officer guarding them? must be pretty confident turning his back on feindliche flieger like that! do you suppose they'd just been caught near the border?

when I got this card I'd hoped it was connected with the Venlo Incident but no such luck, eh? again thanks for all help - starting with gerdan. most kindly, good sir!

**Simon O.** · 12-18-2009, 04:07 PM

We can narrow it down to 7th Sept. 1940 to 1943, so 4 dates to look at.
As there are 5 crew members that eliminates some of the main early war types like the blenheim and hampden. The Whitley though was a 5 crew aircraft and the Wellington 6.

On the night of 6\7 Sept 1940, 1 whitley was lost on raids over Germany,Belgium and France.

On the night 6\7 Sept 1941, 5 Whitleys and 2 Wellingtons were lost on a raid to Hüls

The night of 6\7 Sept 1942, 5 wellingtons, 2 Halifaxes and 1 Stirling were lost on a raid to Duisburg

The night of 6\7 Sept 1943, 13 halifaxes and 3 lancasters were lost on a raid on Munich.

**inimicus** · 12-18-2009, 04:27 PM

remarkable data, simon! I'm super grateful. if you manage to winkle out any more info, please share it as well.

one thing makes me feel the card is NOT one of many: there's no printed caption, i.e., as from part of a series 'unser wehrmacht im feld' or whatever. best, david

**Mil-Archive** · 12-18-2009, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Simon Orchard View Post

We can narrow it down to 7th Sept. 1940 to 1943, so 4 dates to look at.
As there are 5 crew members that eliminates some of the main early war types like the blenheim and hampden. The Whitley though was a 5 crew aircraft and the Wellington 6.

On the night of 6\7 Sept 1940, 1 whitley was lost on raids over Germany,Belgium and France.

On the night 6\7 Sept 1941, 5 Whitleys and 2 Wellingtons were lost on a raid to Hüls

The night of 6\7 Sept 1942, 5 wellingtons, 2 Halifaxes and 1 Stirling were lost on a raid to Duisburg

The night of 6\7 Sept 1943, 13 halifaxes and 3 lancasters were lost on a raid on Munich.

That is very interesting. Could I ask where do you find this information ?

**Gerdan** · 12-19-2009, 02:23 AM

There is existing a 6 volumes series listing al bomber losses of the RAF 1939-1945. The author is William R. Chorley.

Titel: Royal Air Force Bomber Command losses of the Second World War / W. R. Chorley
Teil: Vol. 1: Aircraft and crews lost during 1939 - 1940
Verfasser: Chorley, William R. *1936-*
Ausgabe: 3. impr.
Erschienen: Hinckley : Midland Publ., 2005
Umfang: 157 S.
ISBN: 0-904597-85-7, 978-0-904597-85-1

Gerdan

**Anil** · 12-19-2009, 04:10 AM

Dear gentlemen,

Please look at this site. http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

It's excellent reference site.

Thanks.

**Simon O.** · 12-19-2009, 05:31 AM

Gerard, it's from Martin Middlebrook's 'The bomber command war diaries'

Anil, that's a great site, thanks for the link.

The fact that at least 5 crew survived is very unusual, that will make finding the right aircraft much easier.

**Gerdan** · 12-19-2009, 06:28 AM

Anil,

thank you very much for giving us the link which is a great help. As I am a bit "old fashioned"
I always use the volumes of Chorley's RAF Bomber Command Losses which also is listing each loss with the names of the crew and more.

1) 6/7 Sept 1940 : the only Whitley lost was not found and the whole crew is still missing.
2) 6/7 Sept 1941 : the only Whitley V which was shot down and all 5 crew members survived
was on the Hüls raid. But there are n o further information listed. Only
19 Sqn - Z6942 ZA-. no place of crash but the names of the crew.
3) 6/7 Sept 1942 : no Whitley was crashed
4) 6/7 Sept 1943 : also no Whitley crashed.

So if we say that is could be the Whitley from 6/7 Sept 1941 we should try to contact the veterans of the 19 Sqn to find out the surviving crew member's address and ask them where they came down and perhaps identify themselves on the photo. Good luck.

Gerdan

**Simon O.** · 12-19-2009, 10:49 AM

Gerdan

It could also be a Wellington, Halifax or Lancaster where one or two of the crew either didn't survive or were badly injured. We can also discount all sergeant crews as some are clearly officers.

**Gerdan** · 12-19-2009, 12:37 PM

Simon

if we include all these other bombers - and you are right we must do it because it is not normal to think all crew members survied or are to be seen on the photo -so it will be very difficult to identify the exact bomber/crew.

The type of buildings (brick stone) could indicate the northern part of Germany or the border to Holland. The presence of a customs officer (still with a torch light from the night fixed on his chest) the could also be an indication that the photo was taken near a border.

From the situation I guess that the photo of the POWs was shot shortly after their "landing". It does not seem that they are in a POW Camp.

Gerdan

**inimicus** · 12-19-2009, 01:15 PM

extremely interesting thread and wonderful of everyone to help!

about possibly missing crewmen: yes maybe death(s) or serious injuries happened. someone could be in hospital or being buried - (or simply in the loo.)

then there are other casualties maybe: the grimacing man in the middle in the irvin jacket is holding his right arm, which seems to have some kind of wrapping hanging from it. wounded?

probably right as to timeline - it seems like these guys HAVE just lately come down and are in some distress no matter the brave grins and 'stiff upper lip' attitude. I'd love to know more, of course!

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