Jos Fuess GPB

[Jo Rivett]

Only two comments on this interesting thread.

There is no explanation as to why Fuess's name is on the gold party badge. The fact that it is there has to be explained. It is where makers marked badges they produced (either directly or through sub-contractors) and it has to be assumed this is the case unless there is direct proof he did not. Jos. Fuess applied for and received an RZM M1 contract licence number, so he must have considered being a maker of NSDAP awards and badges.

The fact he didn't mention being the designer / maker of the gold party badge in his 1935 exit interview is not proof he did not, unless he specifically mentions it. He may have overlooked it or it was not politic to claim it. That is the thing about his interview - as you say he was under stress and who knows what he had to say to keep safe or keep his place in nazi Germany. Eyewitness accounts are not absolute proof - look at the Nuremburg Trial testimony. Some truth, some lies, lots of self-serving accounts.

Lots of good information, but we still have the NSDAP's highest award with Fuess's name on it, even if they were all mass produced by a contractor in 1933 and no more thereafter. If he fell out with the NSDAP, they may well have erased contracts and other records to disassociate him with them going forward, as you point out they often did in rewriting history.

Stephen

Hi Steven, Yes correct, it is what Makers marked badges they produced, but ONLY the pin plates are marked on the Fuess badges and not always, the button hole attachment on a Fuess badge has absolutely no markings.

The proof is here, in front of you, in the files from 20th February 1935. If the NS were going to erase him making the GPB out of their history, then why not the Blood order design, or the Design of the first-standarte, or any of the other items that he said he either designed or made? He did not forget to mention it in February of 1935. After all, the reason he was asked in to this interview, was to record everything he had done for the NSDAP, it was not coffee and biscuits with a friend and an informal chat !

Whats going on here is simple, not enough research, (if any?) has actually gone into Fuess.. and now it is turning into an Opinion based debate with people who have supposedly collected GPBs all their life, but realize that they lack the fundamentals, and have just assumed that because the name Fuess is on the back, it must come from him. Don't you remember the recent thread where i showed 9 different badges, all with different makers marks, BUT all made by the same sub-contractor? why should the GPB have been handled any different, esp. the Fuess badge, look at it, the enamel work is sometimes shoddy, the letters are basic and primitive, it`s a normal badge, and would most certainly not have been made under tight security. it would have been made like any other badge, hence the attachments always coming off With the Golden HJ badge, there is proof that the Attachments were replaced later with a security pin style, due to the fact that so many were getting lost... what about the GPB ? no such law, people had to make there own, or get a jeweler to attach a chain and needle.

The GPB is being taken way out of context, and placed on some pedestal that it should not be on, nothing special about it then or now.

Josef Fuess marked pin plate proves zero, BUT the Josef Fuess files prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Josef Fuess NEVER said that he designed, made, or had anything to do with the GPB on the 20th feb 1935. (Not in 1973, or after the war, at the most important time in the GPBs history) , those are solid, back and white facts, So if you, or anyone thinks otherwise, that's up to you, but in order to substantiate ANY statement that Fuess actually made them, you will need some evidence, and you dont have it, you only have the opposite.

Maybe someone could start by showing us another badge of any kind, marked Josef Fuess? You cant, because there are none, the man did not make badges, he made jewelery, in the same shop his grandson runs today, in the same place.

To be honest, if you want to believe that Mickey Mouse made them, thats fine with me, nothing will be achieved here, it is always the same, Even when you whack ppl over the shins with the facts, they still stick to opinion... THIS is why most of the Militaria books written today by collectors are so full of Sh** and opinion instead of fact. (Just like the heated debates on the Blutfahne thread) Conspiracy, opinion and jib-jab over actual facts, and common Logic.

[der-hase-fee]

Was an interesting read so far, but unfortunately the last post shows that you have reached the end of the road, Jo. Stephen said it already:

The fact he didn't mention being the designer / maker of the gold party badge in his 1935 exit interview is not proof he did not, unless he specifically mentions it.

I don't really care too much who made the badge referred to as Fuess GPB, which - admittedly - is not the piece of jewelry one might expect it to be. This does not change it's rank in NSDAP awards hierarchy. So I couldn't resist to take your following statement out of context:

The GPB is being taken way out of context, and placed on some pedestal that it should not be on, nothing special about it then or now.

But as always, I appreciate your persistence.

[Br. James]

Indeed this is an interesting read! As I have mentioned before, there is a related question which I have never heard any comment on but which may be fundamental to this discussion: why were there two markedly different designs for the GPB approved for use at the same time? I cannot think of any other award of any kind whose designs were so different and yet approved for issue during the same period! (Do we know who designed the GPB made by Deschler?) In the case of many other awards, though there were numerous manufacturers involved, they all strove to comply with a central design; today we discuss the different makers in terms of minute differences in the thickness of a feather or leaf sculpture, or the 'neck length' of a hilt eagle... But the Deschler and the so-called Fuess GPBs only look similar at a distance, certainly not up close. Both designs are obviously completely different concepts.

And related to this question is another: since the only other manifestation of the GPB in metal is found on the very rare German Order -- and that is the slightly-smaller central enamel piece fashioned in the so-called "Fuess design" -- could it be that the maker of the German Order also made the standard "Fuess-marked" small GPB? I have heard that Wilhelm Deumer is thought to be the only manufacturer of the German Order...could his firm be that which also turned out the standard small GPB marked "Fuess?"

Br. James

[Gary Symonds]

Josef:
I am a bit confused. In post 24, 5/23-you tell us that all of the Fuess GPBs could have been made in one day, up to "100,000" badges.

In post 27 on 5/25, you contradict that assertion, agreeing that the GPBs may have not been made in one day, but over a period of time.

I would think that it would be one or another.
Please advise.

[JoeW]

I am looking at a copy from NARA of a letter dated April 5, 1937 from the Fuehrer's Kanzlei informing Reichsschatzmeiter Schwarz that an order with the Firm Jos. Fuess in Munich made by Frau Winter for 6 pair of GPBs had been cancelled. Is this sufficient evidence that Fuess remained in business after he gave his interview in 1935 and that GPBs were procured from his firm?

[sjl]

I am looking at a copy from NARA of a letter dated April 5, 1937 from the Fuehrer's Kanzlei informing Reichsschatzmeiter Schwarz that an order with the Firm Jos. Fuess in Munich made by Frau Winter for 6 pair of GPBs had been cancelled. Is this sufficient evidence that Fuess remained in business after he gave his interview in 1935 and that GPBs were procured from his firm?

I'd say so...

Well played, Joe.

Stephen

[ErichS]

I am looking at a copy from NARA of a letter dated April 5, 1937 from the Fuehrer's Kanzlei informing Reichsschatzmeiter Schwarz that an order with the Firm Jos. Fuess in Munich made by Frau Winter for 6 pair of GPBs had been cancelled. Is this sufficient evidence that Fuess remained in business after he gave his interview in 1935 and that GPBs were procured from his firm?

Possibly the smoking gun? Nice find Joe!

[Jon Fish]

Nice find Joe , over to you josef ...

[colin davie]

Great read, thanks to all for making such an informative thread.
C

edit to add that Fuess also held M9/77, so he made tinnies as well as M1 marked badges, so he was indeed a badge maker.

[JoeW]

According to an unsourced listing of RZM code M markings that I have, Josef Fuess Munchen carried M1/95.

[colin davie]

M1/95 for membership badges etc and M9/77 for daybadges

[Jo Rivett]

I'd say so...

Well played, Joe.

Stephen

I did not realize that this was a game ??

I am quoting, what Josef Fuess said, and was was written down on the 20th February 1935 from the Original files in the München Archive , nothing more, nothing less. It`s not my take on it, it`s not my opinion, it is black and white facts.

Maybe Fuess sold his Goldsmiths later on and worked fully on producing Golden Party Badges with Pink Enamel and blue Polka dots.. i don't know, and i couldn't care less. The only Josef Fuess files to date, are the 8 pages from 1935, maybe if you Experts actually do some homework instead of comparing images all day long and carrying out a Forum-bashing war against those who dare to even Question you, you may just find more information on Fuess.

@ JoeW, no, it is no evidence at all. It is a proven fact that even huge Metallwarenfabriken, and Abzeichenfabriken never actually made the product that their name is on, so why would it be any different with a small Goldsmith, in a tiny shop on Blumenstrasse in München. It would not, in fact the opposite.

You can interpret the Fuess files any way you want to, and come up with whatever "definite proof" your little hearts desire, i don't collect Golden Party Badges, i don't care if Fuess fell down a well in 1945 and ended up living in the Underworld, where he still may be today, roaming around. I was being helpful, and sharing Period information that until Mark published it in 2010, NONE of you hard core Genius GPB collectors even knew existed. and now you are turning it into a Game, and trying to Stamp your seal of Authority onto it ,belittling the facts that i shared with you in order to justify what you all would like to believe.... Whatever floats your boat. It is though, with 100% certainty, the very last time i am going to Help you or share any information i think may be of assistance with you. You lot don't deserve it, i don't need the hassle just to have cocky remarks thrown back in my face. You may believe what you like of course, and change History to suit your needs in the process. Why not, after all, it`s a game, right ..

And for the l♥ve of God, please dot think that i am angry at any one of you, i aint, at all. Only thing is though, you cant Slap someone in the face, and then later try and give em a hug, that`s not the way it works.

[JoeW]

Herr Fuess, no one has slapped you in the face or used vulgar language necessitating the use of asterisks. This is not a game, but a debate of sorts where points of discussion are presented or "played".

Your stated in post #22 that "... you can rule Josef Fueß as a "maker" of any item out after February 1935 straight away. He dropped out of the party and stopped working for and with them around this time..... But what is sure, is that he never "made" them, and after February 1935 he never made anything else for the NSDAP." In counter to your statement, I offered as evidence the letter from Hitler's Kanzlei from April 1937 that Fuess remained in business after he gave his interview in 1935 and that GPBs were procured from his firm.
I wrote procured, not made, as I am unsure of the use of subcontractors and assemblers in the final assembly and distribution of GPBs. You can interpret the letter I described as you see fit, but I conclude that it fairly establishes my point.

I am sorry that you have decided to perhaps leave this discussion. I am not interpreting the Fuess files as I do not have access to them at this time. Please don't categorize us as ignoramuses because of the surprise exclaimed at your revelations from your interpretation of Fuess's recorded statements in his interview. Some of us perhaps knew of the interview for years but never bothered to pursue it as their main interest in collecting was the development of the Third Reich Police. The information you found in Munich exists elsewhere and is quite plainly listed in finding aids for that archive.

[Jon Fish]

I searched around a little to find a version of the Interview we could read and came upon this......
Interesting read,in English


Below is a complete Translation of the files, followed by a Notes of my own regarding various aspects concerning Josef Fueß, the Party Badges and faulty reference literature. I have translated the files word for word, adding or leaving nothing out. They were dictated by Fueß in 1935 in a `conversation` and are therefore not specific to one subject, but rather an account of Fueß`life and work within the NSDAP over a period of some 15 years, going back and forth between years.
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Fueß met the Führer at the First Public Party meeting in the Hofbräuhaus in München on the 24.02.1920 Dr Dingfelder (who was very much Patriotic) was at that time the main spokesperson. At that time, the small group did not want to gather as National Socialists, but rather under the cover of Dr Dingfelder, a small meeting was arranged without any Political motives. Only after the main Spokesperson was finished, was Adolf Hitler allowed to speak and announce the 25 points.

The meeting leader was Anton Drexler, Rudolf Schüssler was the 1 Party Treasurer

Harrer dropped out of the party, after criticizing the harsh lines in the 25 points adopted by the Führer. Fuess was a member of the Deutschvölkische Schutz und Trutzbundes after the Revolution. (1919) Although nothing much ever changed in this organization. Justizrat Willibald von Zezwitsch was the Leader of this Bund, he was not the Fighting type, and so became Lame to history.

Josef Fueß Speaking

One day, myself and an Aid of mine Emil Burghard from Eutingen in Pforzheim, discovered a red poster at the Market square, “1st Year 1920” concerning the depression and collapse in Germany, and also a few harsh words about the Jews. We visited this meeting/gathering. My mother had raised me as an Anti-Semite because the Jews were always abusing and ridiculing father. My father owned a small farm between 1898-1899, and was regularly being conned by Jews.

Born 22.10.1885 in Pforzheim
Parents; Georg Friedrich Fuess, Carolina, born Kirchbauer, in Solingen near Karlsruhe
I was a Farmer as well as a goldsmith in a Factory.
I learned the trade of Goldsmith from a young age in Pforzheim, in the Technical school and technical school of arts.
I Had jobs in Mainz, Geneva and back to Pforzheim where I became self employed.
I received many orders from München, and for comforts sake I moved there.
Married in Pforzheim to Carolina (born Meier.) I worked here in München until the start of the Great war. I went to war myself on the 3rd day.
Before the war, I lived in München in Corneliusstrasse 5 and in the Mittelsbacherstrasse 5. My business was in Blumenstrasse 5.

First as a Replacement reservist, then got sick with rheumatoid arthritis After I got better, I was sent to Ingolstadt in the Pulverfabrik (powder factory) Placed, in the laboratory. I stayed there until the end of the war. I was able to fit in well with the complicated materials and taking my sickness into consideration, served my duty here until 1917, when I got sick again and was transferred to the nerve clinic in Ingolstadt, and then for about 8 weeks to recover in the Lazerette Scheuern .
After I got better, I worked again in the laboratory until 1918.
In March or April, I was then called back to my company in München.

Josef Fueß talking about the Deutsche-Arbeiter-Partei in Sterneckerbräu Ihad the opportunity to contact Rudolf Schüssler, because It was my intention to make a Plaque with the names of the 7 founding members of the Party. But it was really hard to determine who the first 7 were, as the 7 that we think of today as the founding members (1935) were not the original 7.

Drexler Schüssler, Kirchel, Hiddel, Körner, Hitler…. ? Drexler was the Chairman at this time. As nice of a person as he was, and a nice and easy going party member, he was too weak. Drexler felt somewhat placed in the background as he would never gain the amount of support or the public's full concentration as Hitler did when he spoke. Drexler also had a run-in with a certain … (name not filled in) from Augsburg, who managed to sabotage his speech, and wanted the party to split and join him. Hitler arrived later at this meeting.. Because of this meeting, Hitler took away lots of Drexlers powers, and from now on, Drexler was known as the Honorary Chairman. Hitler said it was only logical that he should speak, as he could get the crowds concentration and pull them with him. At evening meetings, these three people spoke, Hitler, Drexler, Esser.

Josef Fueß talking about the Design of the Party Badge

They were all average poor devils, and so , I decided to devote my full attention and all the possible resources to help them. To help the Parteikasse i made party needles and necklaces.

One evening Drexler said to me, “you could actually design a Party badge, something like a swastika, black and white and the words Deutscher Arbeiter partei.”When I had completed the design, the Führer said to me, “It`s nice, but we have to fit the words National Sozialistische Deutscher Arbeiter Partei into it”I placed the first badge on the Führer in the Sterneckerbräu.

The Evening meetings developed well, and we had to use a bigger hall. The Evening meetings, as well as the Public meetings took place in different places, for example in Tal, at Schlicker. I offered the rest of the party badges for free. worked mostly without pay. I organized the materials needed, the money , Specifically for the Swastika needles etc went directly into the Parteikasse. Otherwise members did what they could in helping, from small money contributions, clothes shoes etc.. Party member Körner came regularly to me and asked for money. The needles were a slow but steady extra income. One evening Drexler said to me, “you could actually design a Party badge, something like a swastika, black and white and the words Deutscher Arbeiter partei.”When I had completed the design, the Führer said to me, “It`s nice, but we have to fit the words National Sozialistische Deutscher Arbeiter Partei into it”I placed the first badge on the Führer in the Sterneckerbräu.

At the meetings, the following were present. Esser, Feder, Rosenberg, (Hess was not present often) Berchtold. Amann only joined after the party had opened up in the Corniliusstrasse. (There was a shop there, and it was the first party place outside of the Sterneckerbräu. The Führer was living Alone in the Thierschstrasse, which was run by a woman, Mrs Dachs. (Mrs Dachs had a daughter, who’s name after her marriage was Reienerdt and she moved to Prinzregentplatz 16.)

Josef Fueß talking about the Founding of the Hitler Youth

In the small hall, of the Bürgerbräukeller, in 1920, or 1921, Hitler came to this event as well, the name was Jungsturm Hitler, and Lenk was made Jugend Führer.
In the following Guesthouses, is where meetings took place.
Wagner, Zirkus Krone, Hackerbräu Keller, Schwabinger Brauerei, Löwenbräu, Amtburger Keller.

Companionship evenings, German evenings and German Weihnachten (Christmas) etc were only introduced in 1922. It was always a big Family, whether Party member or not. I was one of the first people who were drawn into the movement, this happened at the 2nd public meeting together with my friend Burkhard we joined the Party on the 24th 02 1920. I couldn’t involve myself with the Party later on though, as my business had suffered greatly .

Recollections of a meeting at the Hofbräuhaus

The Hall was completely full. Dingfelder was busy speaking. Afterward, The Führer , the unknown Soldier, spoke. He was talking about the parties 25 points, and every now and then, the crowd would be in uproar, it felt as if certain people wanted to disrupt the meeting. At the table with me, sat a young woman, who called out in-between pauses, “Zur Geschäftsordnung..zur geschäftsordnung” Finally the Führer had enough, and he called out “Die geschäftsordnung bestimmen wir” The opposition was not able to disrupt the meeting as they had wished, there was no reason, or they lacked the initiative. That was the first meeting at the Hofbräuhaus, present were Schüssler, Drexler, Esser and Rosenberg.

We went to the second meeting, and registered ourselves. There were a lot of Protest meetings taking place then, for example under Kahr at the Königsplatz At the second or third meeting, the Ordnungsmänner were announced. The list of these original men, is kept by a Dr Zirnwald in Lauchheim near Stuttgart. The SA originated from the names on this list.

Josef Fueß talking about the 9th of November 1923

There was a meeting on the 8th November in the Bürgerbräukeller. By that time we had the SA, and I, as one of the oldest party members, wanted to register as a member of those who walked in the march. Then Körner, the 2nd Vorsitzende told me that it would be better for me to be a spy , and not to march with them, so while they were marching, I was following close behind, mingling with the crowds, and trying to pick up any information that I could, and to judge the atmosphere in the Crowd. I walked from the Bürgerbräukeller onwards, and heard a lot of different comments, for example: “These people wont do it any different any way” or “Now he shall show us what he can do”The following Sunday, the Reichswehr were in Augsburg by München, so I took my camera down to Town, and took a picture of someone being arrested. (Picture handed over )

Josef Fueß talking about the Blood Order Design

The design Came from me, The armbands that the SA were wearing that day were sewn by my wife.

Josef Fueß talking about his Personal Closeness with the Fuehrer

The Führer was also present at the Confirmation of my son, as well as Esser, Drexler and Körner, signed cards of this event are present The Führer also played the Piano at this Party.

A Master Painter, Schmidt, in Garching was an old War friend of the Führers, and the two of them were often together. The Führer talked in Egern, Mornau, Solfratshausen 1923. The Führer decided to *do something* about the collapse of the Mark. I knew Dietrich Eckardt, the front fighter of our organization personally very well. He wore a Swastika needle with a Ruby that I had made, I only ever made two of them. (one for me, and one for Eckardt.) Dietrich Echardt lived in München, he was the publisher of the Völkische Beobachter before the Party took control of the newspaper.
Drexler came to the party through Eckardt.

Were the Anti-Semite views brought into the Party by Hitler

The damage the Jews were doing was publicly known at that time, although Hitler fought against them in a much deeper and precise way, than the other People were prepared to do, he was also considered a bit too radical for these people, at this time in History.

Birth of the Party Badge, Armband, Flag

One day, the Führer, accompanied by Graf, one of his most faithful companions, came to me. At this meeting, the Führer talked about the “invention” of a Feldstandarte, and this is what he was thinking of:
1 Eagle, Wreath, Swastika and below it the cloth. He had a few sketches of what he envisaged with him, and the rest was left up to me.
München 20th 02 1935.

Party Badge / Sympathizer Badge Patent

(There were Two Documents from the Reichspatentamt in the Fueß files, the first one below, is an Application for a Patant on a Badge as described below, the second is a Warning from the Patentamt letting Josef Fueß know that there has been no payment for his patent, and until there was no Payment, they could not process his Patent)

Concerning the entry of 19.October.1920

If you don’t object, then the entry of the Depicted designs offered by you, on 9th September 1920, two concentric circles with a swastika in the middle, to be used as Jewelery in your Goldsmith business will be registered.

Please supply us with 12 more sketches of this design. Ges. Müller.

What Happend to Josef Fueß ?

A question we should be asking after reading about his Status within the NSDAP early years. A Man who designed the Party Badge, The Blood Order, Armbands and the Flag vanishes from the NSDAP archives and from History? Not one single Photo of Josef Fueß exists, or mention of him in Books. His name appears briefly on the first Blood Order and then no more. His small Golden Party badge design is very different from that to Deschlers, even though according to Patzwalls well researched Book on the GPB, Deschler most likely held the Contract for them, hence you never find Ges. Gesch on a Fueß Badge.

[JoeW]

This is a portion of the eight pages of interview I surmise. I read this before. Is it from his web site?