The Wagner made 1870 EK1

[Biro]

The Wagner made 1870 EK1

Just wanted to start a thread on this the most prized EK1 of the Franco-Prussian war and get some input from many of our knowledgeable members here who may frequent other German speaking forums that many of us English speakers cannot access.

There have been a few of these pop up recently which have come under close scrutiny as a result of some small anomalies such as pin type, core type, etc..

I'll outline what I know/beleive and then throw it open to others for discussion.

There are in my experience (and this may be news to some of you) TWO different core types found on the 1870 EK1's we refer to jointly as 'Type A'. I have yet to see a distinction from anyone as to whether one is considered earlier, or a '1st batch' from the Berlin Foundry or what - but I'm sure guys like Mike Estelmann (RAO) will have some valuable input.

The two core types can be seen below and in particular you will notice that the crowns are different and the spacing of the dates are different.

[Biro]

Both the above EK's are Wagner made (assembled) and maker marked accordingly. They sport the same pin type and catch which I think we agree is the earliest of the few different reverse hardware styles ...

[Biro]

The cross on the yellow background above exhibits what we now pretty much universally call the 'Type A' core which can also be seen in many of the 1870 EK2's owned by forum members here.

Interestingly though, I have yet to see the core type on the cross with the white background (below) in any 1870 EK2.

[Biro]

The 'white background' cross with the slightly unique core can be found with two different reverse hinge and pin types.. the slightly swollen pin and the classic needle pin.

[Biro]

The well established 'Type A' core (which I'll repeat is different to the core that can be seen in post number 3) can be found on crosses assembled by both LL (Ludwig Lauer or Louis Lemcke, we don't really know..)

[Biro]

.... and crosses assembled by Godet. Again, using the standard 'Type A' core made at the Berlin foundry and common in EK2's of the same period.

[Biro]

And yet the core in post number 3 (and repeated here below) seems exclusively to be a componant solely of the Wagner assembled cross. So I guess discussion predominantly surrounds the type below.

Pin types vary, so they are not dateable by pin type, they are not used by any other manufacturer other than Wagner (at least to my knowledge) and yet they seem to have avoided the 'Type A' tag as coined by Mike Estelmann in his excellent article on the core types.

I think a discussion on the Wagner made 1870 EK1 would be a benfit to members here so I'll open it up to you all to ponder and throw out any further observations.


Marshall

[Montgomery Burns]

found also a,,,,,,,, a type stepped core with substantial moulding flaws .

but have not seen it as ek1 yet ,,so ,,

don't know if it is useful to note ...

and I must say ,,that I find the a type ek2 cores we see so much around ,,look different then the a type,, off the ek 1 you show here...

and I never seen the Moore rounded crown you show as an A type in the first place
but only as early crown beside the A type ...
strange it has never being put in a different category ,,

but we all have our own way off looking at things ,,,,so

regards kay

[streptile]

I tend to call the Wagner EK1 core a "Type A1," for lack of a better term. It is, as you've said, only found in Wagner marked EK1s.

I'm happy you started this thread -- it's something I've wanted to explore but never got 'round to posting about.

[RAO]

Gentlemens, I have a problem with my English. I think I understand everything well, but have a little problem to express myself in detail. But I try.

With my article, I mainly wanted to warn against the nine bead fakes and show that there are basically two main types cores, A and B and type A was used in the early time by other manufacturers such as Godet and LL Louis Lemcke, perhaps even others we still do not know.

To the EK I, I think there are two variants of core type A, in review Biros shown first. With Andreas K. long time ago before I have discussed it, he is an absolute specialist for EK I 1870th He thinks that the variant, shown on a white background, very, these are early pieces, I think it is a luxury version you could buy. Andreas, please correct me if I quote you wrong. What is right, I do not know. It is noteworthy that there is this core variant at also EK II but very, very rare. At the core of Type B, I also know two versions, these are also regularly in EK II.

To the EKII 1870, I know at least three variants of the core type A. One can see from the pearls of the crown. There are 9, 10 and 11 beads.

What is our problem? We do not know how many pieces of mother to produce the molds were made. We do not know whether that went broke and were replaced. In 1874 the Berlin iron foundry was closed. We do not know what happened to the tools. Have they been sold by other companies continue to use? Many questions not enough answers, but a lot of motivation to do research.

For the hardware! I think it's to heavy about the hardware manufacturer to define. Why? We do not know whether the manufacturer is supplied with one another. Who produced the needles? Who produced the frames, etc. etc. etc.
But what we know. All early EK I know I have a flat back and are not bent. All early EK I know I have a very high scheduled needle hook and the core are not painted.
I hope you could understand everything and I do not care for confusion.

Thanks + Regards Mike E.

[römischIX]

gute erklärung mike - mein englisch ist noch bedeutend schlechter

[streptile]

Mike,

Your english is perfectly understandable and your explanation is excellent. I just have a few questions.

To the EK I, I think there are two variants of core type A, in review Biros shown first. With Andreas K. long time ago before I have discussed it, he is an absolute specialist for EK I 1870th He thinks that the variant, shown on a white background, very, these are early pieces, I think it is a luxury version you could buy.

The version against the white background -- let's call it core Type A1, ok? (If you have a different name already please tell us) So, Andreas thinks this was an early award type. You think it was a luxury version for private purchase. But do you think that the core type was a luxury version? Or the pin type? Or the combination of both? Have you ever seen an original I Wagner marked piece with this swollen pin, and a standard Type A core? I have only seen this swollen pin with the Type A1 cores.

It is noteworthy that there is this core variant at also EK II but very, very rare.

If you have a photo of this type I would love to see it!

To the EKII 1870, I know at least three variants of the core type A. One can see from the pearls of the crown. There are 9, 10 and 11 beads.

This is also very interesting to me. I consider this type of crown (shown below) to be a WWI manufacture. Do you call it a Type A variation?



The same crown:



Please see HERE for more photos.

But what we know. All early EK I know I have a flat back and are not bent. All early EK I know I have a very high scheduled needle hook and the core are not painted. I hope you could understand everything and I do not care for confusion.

"a very high scheduled needle hook" -- I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean the hinge is high on the back of the cross? Or the catch is high?

I appreciate your post and thank you in advance for your help with my questions.

[Montgomery Burns]

the catch is high placed trevor ,,look at the Wagner pictures

regards kay










.

[RAO]

the catch is high placed trevor ,,look at the Wagner pictures

regards kay

.

Yes Kay, that is it what I mean. Is "catch" that better word for needle hook?

Thanks and Greetings Mike

[Biro]

The 'high placed catch' has been my experience of ANY Wagner marked piece, regardless of the style of reverse attachment set-up..