late war "Dachau" trapezoid

[Gary Wood]

Bill,
yep that's a great example on the late dachau or pirate type as collectors call it, thanks for sharing,
cheers,
Gary

[Tony Barto]

Ahoy matey!! Arrrrrr

[Perry Floyd]

Was this considered the last "style" trap used? Do you have a pic of the inside?

[Gary Wood]

Perry,
this style of trapezoid appears on the black panzer m43 cap's that were found in the dachau clothing works by so many US vets, these caps normally have an exposed card on the underside of the bill. I have only ever seen this type on those types of m43 caps, rather than being the last type is more than likely just a manufactures variation

does anyone have a picture of the green example?
cheers,
Gary

[Perry Floyd]

Yes Gary, look in the helmet and headgear forum under "From the vets family M43WSS"

[Paulh]

Trap

Perry,

Congratulations on your nice original SS M style cap featured in the other thread. However, the trapezoid on it is not the same as the "Pirate" trap on Bill's cap. The trap on your cap is the other style of machine embroidered trap and can be found in field grey and black for panzer troops.

The trap on your cap is made out of a more coarse reworked wool than the Pirate trap. There are quite a few variations in originals of the style of trap found on your cap and the repro folks use this to their advantage. There are some reproduction embroidered traps that look quite good. Original variations due to different manufacturers (templates), different settings on the embroidery machines, etc. can make it difficult for collectors distinguish them from some of the fakes.

When comparing your trap to Bill's Pirate trap, note the differences in the eagle, the upside down heart for a nose, and the single row of teeth found on Bill's trap. Pirate traps are quite uniform in appearance.

Gary, I am not aware of any Pirate style traps having ever been found in grey, are you? It is kind of like the second style, single row of teeth, machine woven trap that shows up in grey.
I've never encountered one of those in black.

On a side note, a friend of mine owns a machine embroidered trap taken from the factroy, which had the original artwork still attached. It is amazing how the manufactured item doesn't really come up to what the artist had invisioned. The artists drawing looks more like the style of the woven traps, but I guess the embroidery machines themselves were somewhat limiting.

Regards,

Paul

[Tony Barto]

Hi Paul;

Any chance of you being able to post pix of your friends trap and template? Oh yes, your buddy, skully, says hi! He has three friends that showed up to visit him today. I'll try and post pix later of them.

[Perry Floyd]

Thanks for the info Paul. Would you say it was late '44 that the "pirate" trap started to appear?

[Paulh]

traps

Tony,

I will contact the gentleman and see if he will allow me to post the image. Unfortunately, all I have is a photo copy of the artwork and trap, not a real picture. So, I would have to make a scan of photocopy. Also, I have to figure out how to post pictures to this site...... You picked up three skulls in one day???? You are a lucky man. Please do post pictures.


Perry,

There are very few pictures of the Pirate trap being worn and therefore it is difficult to fix a real date on their introduction. A gentleman named R. Noss (I do not know if he participates on this forum) came across a very nice period portrait shot of a panzer EM wearing a black M style cap with a Pirate trap about a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I do not think the picture was dated.

I would imagine that 1944 would have been the time frame most traps started showing up on caps. Most of the period photos I have seen are of the machine woven variety. Recently, I was shown a picture of a very unusual trap, which is supposed to have been manufactured in occupied France. If good, it might put the production/use of traps earlier in 1944.

Bill's very nice cap is one of the few actually worn Dachau caps I have seen. Most, like mine, are mint and were picked up by vets at the supply depot.

Regards,

Paul

[Gary Wood]

"Gary, I am not aware of any Pirate style traps having ever been found in grey, are you?
Paul,
no, I have never seen one on green yet! I do not know if they ever made them on green which when you think is unusual as they did produce all the other Machine embroidered traps on green and black, it would be a scoop to find one on green even if just in a picture,
cheers,
Gary

PS paul if you want to post pictures e-mail me the pictures I will post them for you

[Tony Barto]

Hi Paul;

Scully and his three new pals. Scully is at the topD

[Paulh]

Misc.

Tony,

Skully's brother and cousin seem to have come to visit with a very nice CT in tow. Those new skulls - would they happen to have come from a gentleman with the initials T.E. from Canada?
I have been looking for the white/grey version of this style for quite some time and always end up five seconds late to the deal.
Very nice items. If the white/grey guy ever needs a new home, I am here for him...............

Perry,

I went through my files and couldn't find any conclusive proof of when the Pirate style trap was introduced. A couple have authors have stated late 44, but I do not know if that is based on actual German documents or not. The Pirate caps do seem to have been issued in a fair number. Author Mark Bando, who has collected quite a few 101st airborne bring backs has several in his collection, which were cut off caps. Using the 101st as a sample, who ran into a number of SS Divisions in their time in Europe (Gotz von Berl., Das Reich, LAH, HJ, Hoen. etc.), the vets picked up a fair amount of Pirates as compared with other traps - as I recall. Not very scientific, but something that interested me.
I would believe the machine woven style were more prevalent, based on the number we see today.

Bill,

Thanks for your kind words. As you mentioned my emphasis of study/collecting is cloth skulls and trapezoids. It makes it easier to gather a fair amount of information/examples when you are only looking at two types of insignia. I owe a lot to gentlemen like Gary Wood, Bob Hritz, Dave Delich, Frank Thayer, etc. for helping me in my pursuits.

Have a good one,

Paul

[Tony Barto]

Hi Paul;

Yes, Scullys brother and cuz came from T.E. in Canada. If cuz decides to move elsewhere you'll be the first to know.

[Paulh]

cap

Bill Shea's is a nice example of the field grey (green) machine embroidered trap, but note that it is not a Pirate trap. I do
not believe a field grey Pirate trap has been uncovered to date.
Maybe someday..........

Paul

[Tony Barto]

I've never seen the 'pirate' type in anything other than black either. I imagine if they do exist in green or grey they're exceedingly rare.