Buckle Tabs

[Paul Massucci]

Hello all,
Just thought I'd raise this question again and try to get a good discussion going.
What's the purpose of the leather tabs?
A few years back on another buckle forum someone, I'm can't remember for sure who but I believe he's a member here, suggested that the tabs served thepurpose of evening out the overall thickness of the belt in order to hold the ammo pouches worn on both sides in place. At first that made sense to me but then why don't we see SS buckles with tabs ( although I think someone has one ). Also we find early dated Luftwaffe buckles with tabs way before there were any combat field divisions. I have a RAD EM's buckle and an early Bahnpolizei Leaders buckle with tabs, so I don't think the ammo pouch theory is correct.
Any thoughts, ideas, questions or answers

[Wickie]

Hello Paul,

still an interesting question. The idea with the ammo pouches is still the most common. But I doubt, that there was special use in the 3.Reich.
Why not the SS? Why the RAD? I have the same 'problems' like you.

Is it possible that there was a special use for them before the 3.Reich, and later they just kept it?

The other theory which I have is the following: I wear by my self pebbled and smooth buckles which could be bought today. They are similiar in the construction.
Sometimes (when the belt is open) the prongs move from the holes and the buckle slide from the belt. This would not happen with a leather tab.

May be this was not the reason for the introducing of the tab, but it could be the explanation for the added tabs to SS buckles?!
Of course only an idea...


Christian



P.S. Is it possible to your Bahnschutz leader with tab?

[Paul Massucci]

Christian,

here it is

[Paul Massucci]

reverse

[Kurt Doench]

Hello everybody,

Interesting to see this subject raised again. I believe it was me who originally propounded the "ammo pouch fastener" theory. I based my comments on the book by Paul Pietsch: Die Uniformierung … des preussischen Heeres. This book, first published before WW1 and reprinted in the 60ies, is really the most excellent work on the peacetime uniforms of the Prussian army. It gives detailed descriptions, drawing and exact introductory dates for practically every bit of uniform and equipment worn by the Prussian soldier between 1810 and original publication date.

I’m on an assignment away from Germany at the moment and will only return home and be able to access my records at the beginning of February, so I can’t give an exact quote now. But Pietsch positively mentions the function described above as the tab’s purpose. I recall I also found it in other original source material relating to military buckles, but can’t say with any certainty which at the moment. But I do think it’s safe to say that that was the tab’s original purpose.

Having said that, the tab is not really necessary to hold the ammo pouch in place properly. It was done away with in the Wehrmacht in 1942 to economise on material, seemingly without any negative consequences. You will also find that only service buckles had the tab, whereas buckles made for private-purchase walking-out dress didn’t, as no ammo pouches were worn with walking-out dress. As has been mentioned in this thread, it is really puzzling that SS-TK and VT/Waffen-SS buckles did not come factory-equipped with tabs. Personally, I believe that was because the tab wasn’t necessary. On non-military buckles, one finds tabs frequently on RAD, police, Bahn- and Postschutz etc. buckles. These are all organisations that had rifle-bearing personnel to some extent, so I expect the tab was something copied from the military buckles. It may be interesting to note that modern Bundeswehr buckles for parade dress retain the tab, even though traditional ammo pouches are only worn on the (white) leather belt by the Wachbataillon, which is still equipped with Karabiner 98k rifles for ceremonial purposes. All other Bundeswehr units have assault rifles and magazine pouches only worn on the webbing belt kit. Surely the tab serves no purpose at all on the Bundeswehr buckle. This can only be explained by tradition.

No purpose comes to mind for tabs on round leaders’ buckles. I have a first pattern DRK leader’s buckle with a leather tab. Probably – as Wickie has suggested – it was found incidentally that the tab ensured a better fit of the buckle to the belt.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Best regards,

Karl

[Marc verstraete]

As this is an interesting subject who is not yet clarified I will ad some comment.

Although not often encountered, private buckles (two pieces construction W.H, LW or RAD) do come with taps, I have some examples in my collection.

I’m not at all convinced nor understand the theory on the ammo pouch. On the attached picture one can see there is no need to even out anything. Both sides of the buckle are even. One side as two layers of leather with the folded over piece of belt holding the belt hook and the other side with the belt tongue.

I have asked the question to many people. WWII Veterans do not remember and the actual soldiers in the German army have no clue! The only other suggestion I heard came years ago from a WWI veteran!!!!!! Yes, yes, in my early years of buckles collecting (more than 25 / 30 years ago) he told me the tab was there to make the adjustment to the buckle and belt easily. It is easier to take the buckle of or on the belt by pulling the tab than to pull the buckle and the buckle also hold better. (Same as Christian’s experience).

Why do most of the buckles from the W.H, LW, RAD, Red Cross, Police, ect... have tabs and not the SS or other NSDAP ( political) buckles?? Why not for budgetary reasons?? Buckles with tab cost more than without tabs! The state pays for the Army, LW, RAD and all other state formations but the SS, HJ, SA had to pay the stuff by themselves!!

Marc

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I quote Marc:"I’m not at all convinced nor understand the theory on the ammo pouch."

If you slide the left ammo pouch against the tongue of the buckle, and the right pouch against the tongue of the belt, both ammo pouches are on the same distance from the buckle...they call it German perfection...the Führer noticed such things...
Pieter.

[Paul Massucci]

Peter,
I respect you and your knowledge and the sharing of it. I understand what you posted and it may be true that the pouches get placed at the right distance, but I have trouble beleiving that that's the purpose of the tabs. What Marc posted ;
"The only other suggestion I heard came years ago from a WWI veteran!!!!!! Yes, yes, in my early years of buckles collecting (more than 25 / 30 years ago) he told me the tab was there to make the adjustment to the buckle and belt easily. It is easier to take the buckle of or on the belt by pulling the tab than to pull the buckle and the buckle also hold better."

makes more sense. I guess we'll probably never really know the purpose.

[Kevin Rea]

Buckle tabs

Hello,
The picture posted by Marc shows that the belt thicknesses are even either side, but only if the buckle is at the end of the belt. If buckle is positioned at the smallest size, then the thickness is doubled on the catch side, making it decidedly uneven and slightly awkward to wear. Just an observation made from personal experience while wearing these belts and buckles over the last few years.
Regards,
Kevin

[Marc verstraete]

Hello,
then the thickness is doubled on the catch side, making it decidedly uneven and slightly awkward to wear. Kevin

Kevin is right, if the buckle is positioned to the mid or smallest size hole of the tongue the buckle has a double thickness and the tab make sense but the contrary is also true, if the buckle is positioned on the last or even second last holes (like on the picture and like it should be) the buckle with tab makes the wear also feel awkward. As one have then the extra thickness on the other side.

Pieter is yoking of course, (I hope) the tabs on the buckles existed before the beloved leader cried out to the world! Or maybe the Fuhrer introduced the tab on the buckles when he was born?

By following Pieter’s theory, all the buckle tabs and all the belt tabs should be the same length but this is not correct as web tabs are no the same length as the web tabs on the web belts, I have web belts with belt "tabs" of 15 cm long! Many leather tabs do not have the same length eider. Also, the private tabs added to some of the EM buckles (SS or others) and to some officers buckle are ALWAYS much smaller than the factory attached tabs. If individuals added tabs to their buckles this had to be for a very practical reason to make their life easier. Not for esthetical reasons or measurement purposes.

I have in my collection two SS officers’ buckles with tab. One can be seen in the Angolia book and is attached to an Aluminium buckle. The second (pictured attached) is part of a complete set of nickel Overhoff SS off. buckle with belt and cross strap. (Buckle attached to the belt) In both cases the tab is smaller than the tabs found on EM buckles, they are professionally attached and made of brown leather.

Marc

[Marc verstraete]

Back

[Marc verstraete]

After a long, interesting and constructive phone conversation with Pieter last night he convinced me that his "Size" theory is not worse than any another theory at this point of the research on "why is there a tab on the buckles."

Pieter do not confirm his point of view by any veteran story, regulations or other period documentations but on logic and personal experience.

Following Pieter’s theory, the spaces between both sides of the buckle when a tab is present are equal. (Space between the prong side of the buckle and the end of the buckle tab as well as the space on the catch side of the buckle and the folded " tab" on the belt who holds the belt hook)

When I ad two ammo pouches on both sides of the buckle and glide these against both tabs these ammo pouches are perfectly aligned on both sides of the buckle. This would be the reason why there is the leather folded "tab" on the belt. If not for this reason, Pieter think the "tab" on the belt is a waist of hundred’s of miles of leather and this is not something the Germans would do.

Personally I don’t think this way as the tabs on buckles and belts are not always of the same length, the web belts do not have the same belt construction and again, why the red cross, RAD, Post, railway, ect. do have the tabs when they never had ammo pouches and why the SS don’t? But, this reasoning is not worse or better than any other.

We have so far 3 possible explanations:

<DIR><DIR>1) Karl

</DIR></DIR>The tab on the buckle is added to even out the thickness of the belt on both sides of the buckle. Karl bases himself on imperial period documentation?

No answer as why no tab on any NSDAP formations including the SS

<DIR><DIR>2) Pieter

</DIR></DIR>Tab is present to easily even out the space between buckle and ammo pouches.

Theory founded on experience of German obsession of perfection and spits technologies

No explanation as why no tab on any NSDAP formations buckles and to why there be a tab on non-military formations that never had any ammo pouches.

<DIR><DIR>3) Marc

</DIR></DIR>The tab on the buckle is there for a practical reason of adjusting and holding the buckle to the belt. Theory taken from the explanations of a WWI veteran and observations on privately added tabs on EM and Officer buckles.

The NSDAP buckles do not have a tab because the buckles with tab are more expensive and the NSDAP was a self-financed organisation.

Anybody another idea?

[Kurt Doench]

Marc,


Thanks for so succinctly putting the three different opinions that seem to have emerged in this thread. As I said, I will look into my files when back home in Germany at the beginning of February and post the exact quotes here. I said myself earlier that the whole ammo-pouch-securely-fastening thing seems a bit pointless to me as well, as the pouches do stay fixed on the belt without the tab and the Wehrmacht itself abolished the tab in 1942, obviously without catastrophic results to soldiers's turnout and "smartness".

Just one thing: most of the non-military organizations that had buckles with tabs did have rifle-bearing personell (police, Bahn- und Postschutz, even RAD had armed guard personell) that would, consequently, also have had ammo pouches. To add to the astonishing fact that the SS buckles didn't have them, the TeNo buckle doesn't have one either, even though here, again, there was rifle-armed guard personell.

Best regards to all,

Karl

[Kurt Doench]

Hi all,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

<o></o>

Have been looking at my files again for descriptions of the tab’s purpose. I have to eat my words where Pietsch is concerned: contrary to my memory, he doesn’t mention the tab at all. Neither do Krickel/Lange in Das Deutsche Reichsheer.<o></o>

<o></o>

In Reichswehr/Wehrmacht regulations, I did find the following:<o></o>

<o></o>

“Leibriemen - … Um das Abgleiten der linken Patronentasche beim Umhängen oder Ablegen des Gepäcks zu verhüten, ist das umgelegte Riemenende zum befestigen des Hakens nur insoweit festgenäht, daß vorn ein etwa 4,5 cm langes Lederstück, der Widerhalt, lose bleibt.<o></o>

…<o></o>

Schloß - … Am Rollsteg ein Widerhalt aus lohgarem naturfarbenen Rindleder für die rechte Patronentasche.“<o></o>

<o></o>

In English:<o></o>

Belt - … to prevent the left cartridge pouch from sliding off the belt when putting on or taking off the belt rig, the doubled-up end [meaning passed through the belt hook] of the belt used to fasten the belt hook is only sewed insofar as a 4,5 cm piece of leather, the Widerhalt [lit. “back-up fastener”, sorry clumsy translation, but you’ll get the meaning] stays loose.<o></o>

<o></o>

Buckle - … On the pin assembly a Widerhalt [meaning the tab] of natural color cow hide for the right cartridge pouch.<o></o>

<o></o>

This exact same wording appears in the 1925 introductory order for the field grey Reichswehr buckle, the 1928 order for the nickel pebbled one, the 1934 dress regulations (H.Dv. 122) describing the 1928 pattern, and the “Deckblatt 100” issued for H.Dv. 122 in 1936 describing the new Wehrmacht Heer buckle.<o></o>

<o></o>

Taking the descriptions of the Widerhalt on the belt and the buckle tgether, I do believe that the tab’s official purpose was to hold the right cartridge pouch in place on the belt, notwithstanding any doubts we all have about the necessity or even practicality of this device for that purpose.<o></o>

<o></o>

At a leasurely pace, I’ll continue looking through my material over the next couple of weeks and will report any additional info I might find.<o></o>

<o></o>

Best wishes,<o></o>

<o></o>

Karl<o></o>

<o></o>

<o></o>

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Karl

Pieter