Spanish Cross without swords -gold? bronze?

[Don Bible]

I recently acquired a small group of badges/medals from the family of a British veteran who died 25 years ago. The family knows very little of his WWII military service.

The family stated that the pieces had been kept in a box with the British service medals of the veteran since the war ended in 1945.

I bought the grouping because of the very nice original Gestapo disc with a very, very low number which I do not want to disclose at this time.

The four other pieces consist of a solid back Gold wound badge marked "30" on the back, a Luftwaffe ground assault badge marked M.u.K. on the back, a common War merit medal with swords in bronze with 6 or 9 stamped into the ring, and the medal about which I am inquiring.

It is a Spanish Cross in gold or bronze ( I don't know which) without swords. I only collect Third Reich era German police warrant discs and have only a token knowledge of other German pieces. I don't find any markings on the medal.

I n trying to do some research on this medal, I found that at least one well-known medal dealer states that this type medal was made but never issued, but on this forum I find it discussed as an original by persons who seem knowledgeable.

All of these medals are in excellent condition, and I have every reason to believe that the statements made by the family about the pre- 1945 vintage of these pieces is absolutely true.

The five pieces were sent to me on approval without me sending any money in advance. I simply agreed to pay for trans-Atlantic shipment and made an advance offer if the Gestapo warrant disc was a an unquestioned original. I told them I would gamble on the other four pieces, as I felt if the disc was good that they probably were too.

After I examined in hand the Gestapo disc I wire transferred the money I had offered for the entire group.

What is the opinion of those on this forum as to the pre-1945 issue of a Spanish Cross without swords? That is my question. I am not a photographer and have only a shot of the entire group. I am not asking for verification of anything from this poor shot.

I just want to know if a Spanish Cross in gold or bronze can be considered original.

Thanks for any help or suggestions. None of the medals will be sold as I wish to keep them with the Gestapo disc.

[Gew44]

Hi Don,
more close up of Spanish cross alone are needed.

As far I can see would be a Bronze grade, IMHO.

Regards

Ciao

[Don Bible]

I really don't have any good photos. I will post what I have. I am NOT trying to verify this particular cross as original.

I am just trying to learn if a Spanish Cross in bronze/gold without swords is ACCEPTED BY KNOWLEDGABLE COLLECTORS TO HAVE BEEN AN ORIGINAL ISSUE PIECE.

At least one well-known medals dealer says it was not...that only the one with swords was ever officially issued.

[Don Bible]

Only other photo I have.

[schönbeck]

looks like a good one to me. Possible Meybauer.

[Don Bible]

Thanks Gew44 and schönbeck for your replies.

For some reason unknown to me these pictures were removed for quite some time today, and later replaced...apparently by the site administrator or moderator. No explanation was given.

Hopefully anyone who tried to post information here during that time, will try again.

Thanks again for your help.

[Sal Williams]

It is bronze and it is the one piece maker and that maker is still unknown

[Don Bible]

Thank you Sal for this information. I deduct from your comments that you believe that the Spanish Cross in bronze without swords was a medal that was originally issued before German surrender in 1945. Is this correct?

If so, who were some of the makers?

The reason I ask is that a well-known medals dealer makes the statement on their website that although the cross with swords was produced it was never issued...and that the specimen that they have for sale for $4500 was removed from a salesman sample board.

[Sal Williams]

Hi Don, yes they were produced and awarded. That sounds more like the debate about a specific type called the droop tail. So it being found on a salesman board would be noteworthy. The spanish cross in bronze w/o swords was awarded many times, being one of the most awarded. Some makers are CEJ Meybauer, deumer among many others. The cross you have is not an award piece but rather a replacement piece which could be purchased (if you had the proof that you won it).

Btw, just finished your warrant disc book, enjoyed it a lot

Best, Sal

[Ludwig]

The Spanish cross without swords only came as bronze or silver, not gold.
Better pictures needed, please!

[Don Bible]

Sal, thanks for the information. You have answered my question. Is there a considerable difference in value between the awarded piece and the replacement piece? How do the two differ in appearance?

I am glad you enjoyed the book. If I can ever help you in my line, please let me know. This Spanish Cross was brought back by a British veteran who had an excellent Gestapo disc....the lowest number I have ever seen.

Ludwig, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have better pictures. I am not trying to verify originality of this cross. Being unfamiliar with this type award, I was only trying to determine if the type existed as an original.

[Sal Williams]

Don, there is not such a big difference in value between the award type and private purchase type, the value difference is much more noticable between grades of the cross. there are a few types
bronze without swords
bronze with swords
silver without swords
silver with swords
gold with swords
next of kin cross
gold with swords and diamonds

naturally diamonds are rarest and incredibly expensive
gold, next of kin and silver without swords are all scarce
silver with swords would be next with both bronze types being about equal

the award type are earliest made and the quality is nicer so they are somewhat more desirable. one way to tell a private purchase piece is by the L/## markings denoting the maker and the L signifying a private purchase piece. Not all private purchase pieces have this marking though.

I am very confident , even from those poor pics, that your cross conforms to the one piece maker. ( all other crosses have soldered on eagle) this cross will not have a marking.

[Don Bible]

Sal, thanks again for this information. My research time over the years has always been spent digging into Third Reich era police warrant discs and ID cards and I have very little knowledge of any other German items.

I just bought these four badges/medals from the family of a British veteran, because he had carried them home together with the Gestapo disc.....which almost certainly has no connection to the badges....but they came home together and I didn't want to separate them after being in a box together for the past 58 years. Now only the veteran's British medals are left in that box and were kept by a grandson.

[Sal Williams]

Sal, thanks again for this information. My research time over the years has always been spent digging into Third Reich era police warrant discs and ID cards and I have very little knowledge of any other German items.

I just bought these four badges/medals from the family of a British veteran, because he had carried them home together with the Gestapo disc.....which almost certainly has no connection to the badges....but they came home together and I didn't want to separate them after being in a box together for the past 58 years. Now only the veteran's British medals are left in that box and were kept by a grandson.

Don, when you research that disc I would be very interested to know if the Spanish cross went with it and any info on the guy! I know it's an off chance, but you never know

[Don Bible]

Sal, I really doubt that there is much chance I will ever be able to learn who carried the Gestapo disc, as the family has no idea how or where the veteran acquired it. He has been dead for 25 years and they know very little about his service, except he was in North Africa early in the war and in Germany in the late part.

When I was trying to learn a little about the Spanish Cross without swords, I read that many of them were awarded to German Luftwaffe men who served in the Spanish Civil War, and that made me wonder if the British veteran took the Spanish Cross and the Ground assault badges from the same man...and even possibly the wound badge. All three pieces are in very nice condition.

I know that is a long shot but it could even have involved the man who had the Gestapo disc at a later time....but I doubt that we will ever know any more than now. I have owned about twenty-five Gestapo discs over the years but have only been able to identify three of them. Two of those had the matching numbered ID card, and the other was pure luck.

If I learn anything I will let you know.