"Replacement" PLMs

[Gordon Williamson]

The so-called replacement or whatever other term, PLMs made between the wars often get a bad press and I have seen comments suggesting that some people don't believe in them on the basis there would be little or no call for them etc etc.

Just for interest, here is a photo from the 1940 Catalogue of Otto Schickle of Pforzheim, illustrating the PLM they manufactured, so here's at least one firm we can now say with certainty did manufacture the "replacement" PLM during the 3rd Reich period.

[stogieman]

Photos??

Hi Gordon, are these photographs illustrating the catalogue, or drawings? Interesting bit of information!

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Gordon, are these photographs illustrating the catalogue, or drawings? Interesting bit of information!

Rick, the illustrations are in the main photos. One or two high quality drawings like the 50 Yr Steinhauer & Lück catalogue on one of the loose leaf appendices, but mostlz photos.

[Bobby lee]

Hi Gordon, I agree with your conclusion. It would be common sense to assume that 'copies' would be made post-war. The problem is that many of the more 'current' PlMs have been pawned off as 'copies' hence the feeling by many that all PlMs are suspect. Part of the 'virus' that infects our hobby. Thanks for the info.
Bobby lee

[Brian S]

It's not a question of existence Gordon, it's seperating the fakes from the real ones and then placing a value. What would YOU rather have, a WWI awarded piece or a "replacement" Schickle?

And this Schickle just does not answer the question of supply to meet demand. The demand for replacements would have been VERY small.

Don't mean to rain on everyone's parade who hopes this thread places inestimable value on their unbeknownst piece.

[Rick Research]

Photographic "benchmark"

The long tail feathers and that UGLY "pie wedge" suspension as well as lettering details should be enough to identify THIS company's anonymous pieces! ONE "unknown" variety is now absolutely placed and dated.

Thanks Gordon!

(EEz oogly, but I'd "settle" for one! )

[Gordon Williamson]

It's not a question of existence Gordon, it's seperating the fakes from the real ones and then placing a value. What would YOU rather have, a WWI awarded piece or a "replacement" Shickle?

And this Shickle just does not answer the question of supply to meet demand. The demand for replacements would have been VERY small.

Don't mean to rain on everyone's parade who hopes this thread places inestimable value on their unbeknownst piece.

I agree demand would have been small, but it doesn't mean there weren't lots of firms competing to fulfill that small demand. Schickle was a small firm and not one I'd guess many people would have figured on making the PLM. Could have been many other firms making them at that time. The interesting thing to me is that the PLM does not feature in the 1938 catalogue, but in 1940, so they appear not to have started making them until after the outbreak of war, not in the inter-war period.

Of course anyone would prefer a WWI piece to a "between the wars" or 3rd Reich period piece, and the value of the later ones would be much less, but still very much worth having in my view. I rather suspect there have been many genuine pre-May 1945 ( i.e. legitimate replacements and not modern) pieces branded as fakes .

[Luftm40]

Not my area at all, so I am just curious. With an Imperial award, why would something produced in, say, 1958 be less legitimate than the same type of item produced in 1938? The Imperial period in Germany was just as dead. I understand this pre-May 45 distinction w/ TR awards because they ceased to exist and were never considered legitimate again in their pre-May 45 form (ie w/ swastika).

[stogieman]

It's an issue of quality

Awards made prior to the collapse of the country, economy & monarchy are so vastly superior in materials, workmanship that awards made as late as 1935 just did not compare.
Materials, manufacturing techniques and a generation of different Germans (& Austrians) simply could not recreate the loving, hand-precision of their craftsperson fathers & grandfathers.
I cannot prove it, but would be willing to bet that the jeweler who made the PLM in 1916, Für Gott, Für Kaiser, Für Vaterland made it with a deep, loving respect & pride which simply vanished when the Armistice came.
Even in the years from 1915-1918, the quality of Juncker badges declined. I can pick an early/pre-war pilot badge out of a group of real ones based simply on appearance. Even the last 3 years of the war took a toll.
I'm not trying to dismiss, or belittle this very important discovery by Gordon.
Frankly, it is my theory that every other seller of the PLM could be proven to have purchased the piece from one of the official makers, unmarked, for resale to their own customers.
I can't prove it, but their are tantalizing clues... Like the Godet maker-tagged medal bar to a Prussian Officer showing a Saxon Albert Order, RK1 w.X, maker marked to Scharffenberg in Dresden. Godet sales catalogues show Saxon & Bavarian awards. Do you honestly believe Godet made each and every one of these?
I submit that Godet made Prussian pieces, and everything else was purchased/out-sourced to the appropriate house jeweler/orders chancellery.
Can you prove it, no.... but the Germans were frugal, it's a national institution. I would find it very hard to believe that this would be any different.
There are notable exceptions. You will find Prussian Pilot Badges that bear NO maker marks whatsoever, however they are obvious Juncker-made pieces. I submit that these badges were made by Juncker specifically for re-sale by other jewelers.
BUT Meybauer sold their own version of the award, with notable differences in style/details. Meybauer was a HUGE firm, as was/is Steinhauer & Lück... they certainly made a number of the awards from many different states.
I would submit to you that the majority of the sellers did not.
Prior to the discovery of this catalogue, there absolutely NO PLM's maker marked to this firm that have been discussed in any of the published resources.
I submit that if it were possible to prove, my theory would be examplified.

[Gordon Williamson]

Not my area at all, so I am just curious. With an Imperial award, why would something produced in, say, 1958 be less legitimate than the same type of item produced in 1938? The Imperial period in Germany was just as dead. I understand this pre-May 45 distinction w/ TR awards because they ceased to exist and were never considered legitimate again in their pre-May 45 form (ie w/ swastika).

Mostly because the vast majority of those made from 57/58 onwards were predominantly for the collector market rather than as legitimate replacements for vets. Of all the hundreds of German vets I have had contact with over the years I could count on the fingers of one hand the number who bothered to buy replacements for the wartime awards. It is an oft repeated fallacy that they were only supplied to vets who had to prove entitlement . They were sold over the counter to anyone who wanted them.

Then there is the quality issue Rick refers to. If there was a drop in quality between Imperial and 3rd Reich awards, there was an even greater drop between 3rd Reich period pieces and the junk quality of most post WW2 made stuff.

[Rick Research]

Andy: also, awards re-made 1920s-40s were made to be WORN and were regularly, routinely worn on uniforms, while the post-1945 stuff, even if indeed worn by a proud pensioner, was something worn slapped on a civilian suit for a private afternoon with the annual regimental reunion dinner or that sort of thing and NOT worn as part of everyday duty.

That's why I'd rather have a "boring" medal bar that was WORN-- or perhaps USED would be more accurate-- than something glittery and expensive that sat in a cufflinks drawer, or something mint in box... because it was dealer stock never even given to a real person.

It's like an ACTUAL U.S. Indian Wars Campaign Medal versus one of these modern (made last month ) quote-unquote "contract" pieces you see covering tables at every big militaria show.

[Brian S]

Of course anyone would prefer a WWI piece to a "between the wars" or 3rd Reich period piece, and the value of the later ones would be much less, but still very much worth having in my view. I rather suspect there have been many genuine pre-May 1945 ( i.e. legitimate replacements and not modern) pieces branded as fakes .

I think you're right about this! Unfortunately we have the fakers to thank for causing us to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Gordon Williamson]

Frankly, it is my theory that every other seller of the PLM could be proven to have purchased the piece from one of the official makers, unmarked, for resale to their own customers.

Rick,

its an interesting theory and one I wouldn't have a problem with as far as sellers of awards are concerned. Its also one I'd happily accept as being most likely in the Imperial era and probably in the "between the wars" period when there was no control over who manufctured or sold what.

However, this is a manufacturers catalogue and we already know from documents in the Bundesarchiv that Meybauer for one, landed themsleves in the sh1t for passing off what was effectively Deschler material (in this case the DK) as their own. So, I'm inclined to believe that this manufacturers catalogue, like the Assmann and Steinhauer catalogues sho the items that firm actually made.

[stogieman]

Sorry Gordon....

.... but I will respectfully disagree. Godet was a <i>manufacturer as well</i> and their catalogues clearly show Saxon Albert Orders and Bavarian MVO's that when found in Godet groups are clearly maker marked for other manufacturers....

[Gordon Williamson]

.... but I will respectfully disagree. Godet was a manufacturer as well and their catalogues clearly show Saxon Albert Orders and Bavarian MVO's that when found in Godet groups are clearly maker marked for other manufacturers....

And are the catalogues you speak of wartime ?