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    Round Wreath Pilot Badges - New Evidence

    Hi guys,

    After some recent threads regarding the round-wreath pilot badges, a gentleman was generous and kind enough to send me 2 examples to study in hand. Like most collectors, I was VERY sceptical about these badges, but am always willing to take a look and try hard to keep an open mind.

    After studying and photographing these badges for a few days, I was quite suprised to find MANY aspects that are entirely consistent with wartime-produced badges made by Juncker! Some of us had surmised that Juncker may be involved with these to some extent based on the eagle design and reverse hardware, but the connections are so numerous that I don't know how anyone can deny that Juncker made these after seeing all the evidence that will be laid out here.

    I will post the badge, and then several compares I did based on what I could physically see on the badges themselves. Most of these compares are done with #PABs, mainly because these would have likely been from the same timeframe of these round-wreath pilot badges (late war). I also used #PABs because I had very good pictures at my disposal thanks to Phil DeBock's excellent book on the Panzer Assualt Badges.

    One last thing before seeing the compares. I am NOT saying these round-wreath badges are originals, only that they are VERY similar to late-war badges made by Juncker. Whether they are made before or after May 1945 is still to be debated. Many of these badges come with stories of "vet finds" or whatever. I think these stories are important, but what carries much more weight (with me anyway) is the physical characteristics of the badges themselves. As far as I am concerned, we cannot fault these round-wreath pilot badges on materials and hardware. Whether they were truly made by Juncker during the last year of the war or postwar is still to be determined...

    Firstly, here is one of the badges that was sent to me. The other one is absolutely identical, so I am only posting one of them. Lots of compares to follow, so don't reply until I say "DONE"

    Tom
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Thomas Durante; 11-20-2010, 09:45 PM.
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

    #2
    The first thing that is immediately noticable and similar to Juncker #PABs is the semi-hollow reverse. Very smooth and well done, and is also similar to the late-war semi-hollow Anti-partisan badges we also consider to be made by Juncker.

    Also notice that the same type of silver FROSTED finish is used on both the #PAB and the pilot badge. Its not a very common type of finish that we see, so its quite remarkable to be found on both badges. Its almost crystalline, very unique IMO.
    Attached Files
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

    Comment


      #3
      Next compare is the pin. Juncker badges, especially the late war #PABs, Anti-partisan badges, their Luftwaffe GABS, etc. typically have a flat spot tool-mark on the pin. Juncker pins are also unique in that they are made from tombak, which was then silvered and then typically blackened in most cases (whereas many other makers used nickel-silver wire).

      Tom
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Thomas Durante; 11-20-2010, 09:46 PM.
      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

      Comment


        #4
        The hinges are a very important clue, and these round wreath pilot badges share several aspects to other Junkcer badges. Notice the straitions along the barrels of the hinge. These striations are a fingerprint of original Juncker products (#PABs, Para badges, etc.) and are the same on these type of pilot badges.

        Also notice the same thin line on the tension foot of the pin, same on both badges.
        Attached Files
        If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

        New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
        [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
        Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

        Comment


          #5
          Also notice the oval-shape of the hingepin! So not only are the hinges identical, but the hingepin was trimmed in the EXACT same fashion leaving it an oval shape. Very interesting IMO.
          Attached Files
          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

          Comment


            #6
            Moving down to the catch, we find that it is also identical to those used on Juncker's late war #PABs. They are round wire, sitting on a round baseplate. Not only that, but notice the striations, very unique!

            The rivets are also typical of later-war Juncker badges. Juncker rivets have a small plaetue on top and are almost always found with a thin raised line running down the middle. I cannot think of another maker with rivets exactly like this, another very important fingerprint of Juncker-made products.
            Attached Files
            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

            Comment


              #7
              And one final compare. Juncker #PABs are full of signs of extensive hand filing on the edges. These round-wreath pilot badges also have a good amount of hand finish, particularly on the reverse edges of the eagle.

              Also notice the same marks between the eagles talons and swastika. Not many makers took this extra step so late in the war, but Juncker definately did because hand filing is an aspect of many of their late war badges (#PABs, Army Para badges, CCCs, etc.).

              Thats all the compares I have guys. In my opinion, its clear that these badges were made by Juncker......and very possibly during the last months of the war. The consistency of the reverse hardware, rivets, finish and base metal used speaks very well in their favor. Combine that with several accounts of these coming out of the woodwork and directly from vets and its quite a compelling case in my opinion. That goes ONLY for these zinc round-wreath pilot badges shown here. The ones that are made with J1 or J2 eagles, and made from buntmetal are flat-out fakes in my opinion. They share little with the round wreath pilot badge shown in this thread.

              Fire away

              Tom
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Thomas Durante; 11-20-2010, 09:53 PM.
              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

              Comment


                #8
                Damn Tom,

                Nice job!

                My only concern is...how to tell exactly when the badge was made (pre- or post may 45). For Luftwaffe pilots...or G.I.s...or both?

                Comment


                  #9
                  That badge is an original all the way. I have never liked these things but evidence is overwelming that the badge you posted is a wartime product in my mind. It is funny after the first image of the reverse I saw things I recognized, that you pointed out in later posts, that all signified original.
                  best wishes,
                  jeff
                  Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tim Calvert View Post
                    Damn Tom,

                    Nice job!

                    My only concern is...how to tell exactly when the badge was made (pre- or post may 45). For Luftwaffe pilots...or G.I.s...or both?
                    Hi Tim, that story that production just continued right on from the day the war ended for GIs is BS. But, we have argued about that for years.
                    best wishes,
                    jeff
                    Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You might be right, or you might be wrong Jeff. Are you saying 100% that not a single badge was made on wartime dies after May 8th 1945?

                      Hopefully a photo of it in wear will pop up some day.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Very nice work Tom....
                        The German Luftwaffe Pilot and Combined Pilot and Observer Badges of WWII 1933-1945
                        Volume I & Volume II


                        sigpic

                        Now Available
                        www.luftwaffepilotbook@gmail.com

                        Comment


                          #13


                          Juncker would have had a hell of hard time resuming production of TR badges after this:
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Tim Calvert View Post
                            You might be right, or you might be wrong Jeff. Are you saying 100% that not a single badge was made on wartime dies after May 8th 1945?

                            Hopefully a photo of it in wear will pop up some day.
                            Is the world that black and white to you Tim? If even one badge was produced on a wartime die sometime between 1945 and 2010 we need to question all late war badges and wonder if possibly they could have been made after the war. Come on, do you think the business that supplied the finishes and paints to the award manufacturers also stayed in business to supply GIs, also the same with the subcontractors who made pins or the people who supplied the raw materials? I can't think like that. If a badge has the same finish, same hardware, and same everything else I choose to believe it was made during the war. Factoring in the vets word that nothing had any value and a GI might trade a knight's cross for a luft helmet or both for a pack of smokes leads me to believe that collector paranoia has gone crazy with the idea of massive postwar production.
                            best wishes,
                            jeff
                            Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Impressive!
                              BUT,.....If considered to be wartime job - Why would Juncker dare to change the outer looks of a symbol that had been out there for almost 10 years, and who would bother to give a permission for something like that in the painful - very end of the war!
                              Questions like that will continue bother the reasonable collector/reseacher, no matter how open minded we are......but, then again EXCELLENT JOB , TOM!
                              This definitely looks like a Juncker creation!

                              Comment

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