M45 printed breast eagle

[Buckliger]

Why should anybody fake a run of eagles that is unknown to collectors society...?
Unfortenatly I can t prove the authencity of the so called second pattern eagle. In the end it seems to be a matter of faith.....

[Fred Green]

Hello,

Sander , you are correct! There are 3 eagles in this discussion!
1. The original Late war 3 color Heer printed breast eagle

2. Type 2 printed eagle owned by you and madandi

3. The weitze eagle.

I will now need to start over on the comparison of the base material of your eagle to the French shirt/Lining material. I have a comparison of the Weitze eagle to the material in Paul McKee's tunic and it is definitely not a match. We need to see if your eagle is made from this French shirt/lining material. Buckliger has a piece of this material. It would be a lot easier to compare your eagle with a piece of material in Europe than have to send it all the way over here.

I will address your beliefs about this type 2 pinted eagle and then I will readdress my beliefs and elaborate on them.

1. the eagle is not based on the first printed type- No it is not! Neither is the Weitze eagle. Your eagle and the Weitze eagle share more things in common than they have differences. Neither of them have anything in common with the 1st pattern printed eagle except that they are printed.

2. it's not made to fool anybody- Wrong! It is either an original or it is made to fool someone!

3. it's not worth a lot of money so why try to fake them?-Why fake anything? there is a profit in it. 100, euros is a lot of money to me.

4. there are only 2 examples know, if they were being faked, wouldn't we see others??- Only 2 examples have been posted. It doesn't matter how many of an item there are but how it is made.

5. i can't seem to find any re-anctors clothing with printed eagles- This has nothing to do with this discussion.

6. is there even a fake version of the first type know?- We are discussing your eagle.

7. both known examples have clearly been used and sewn on, no mint ones were found so far.- Yes they were! Contrary to standard breast eagle application at this time during the war.

8. both eagles have a light brown/green backing colour, reminds me of the first Army eagles pre 1938, maybe these eagles are not late war but just very early? Would explain why they are so rare.- They look nothing like a first pattern Heer breast eagle. Absolutely nothing compares the two.

Since I have responded to your beliefs about this eagle, I will re post mine and elaborate on them.

I have great problems in believing that this second pattern printed eagle is original for the following reasons:

1. The manufacturing process is unlike any other piece of Third Reich insignia that I have ever seen. The coloring used is almost like a paint and does not soak into the material and give you that "Bleed through" on the back.- Most Heer printed insignia has a bleed through, most not all.

2. There are no cut lines.- Most printed Heer insignia had cut lines to follow. Most not all.

3. The material that it is printed on so far has not been confirmed to be French Shirt material.- Forum member buckliger can help out on this. Paul McKee compared the Weitze eagle and it is definitely not French shirt/lining material.

4. The pattern of the eagle is more stylized and not simplified as the 3-color eagle is.- The eagle is more stylized than the simplified 3 color eagle. The object of the manufacturing process at this time of the war was to simplify.

5. The two versions of this second pattern eagle that have been used and appear tunic removed, one posted and another image sent to me, have been cut and folded in the conventional manner not in the trapezoidal style. This is totally defeating the purpose of making simplistic printed eagles. There are no fold lines to follow which makes it hard to fold and very, very time consuming. Both of these eagles also appear to be hand sewn.- Totally defeating the purpose of having a simplified eagle! The germans at this time in the war had made the einheits tab into a rectangle so it could be sewn in 4 straight lines.

Your way of thinking is, I've never seen this so it's fake unless proven otherwise, but you don't have any proof now.- Sander, no it is not! As seen above I try to analyze the item for the items sake in the time that it was used comparing known sewing and manufacturing methods.

Best regards,
Fred

[sander vw]

Why should anybody fake a run of eagles that is unknown to collectors society...?
Unfortenatly I can t prove the authencity of the so called second pattern eagle. In the end it seems to be a matter of faith.....

We share the same thoughts.

I'm sorry Fred, but for me it's an original example, the way it feels, the way it looks and all things stated above.

Your word against mine (and some others here)...

By the way, my example is machine sewn not handsewn. In this thread we could already see some printed examples that were folded aswel, so your conclusion doesn't add up...

I'll bring it to the next SOS if you are there.

Here are some more close up's.

[Fred Green]

Hello,

I am bringing this thread back up because I stated something incorrectly and I was wrong! in post #62 I stated this:

Sander , you are correct! There are 3 eagles in this discussion!
1. The original Late war 3 color Heer printed breast eagle

2. Type 2 printed eagle owned by you and madandi

3. The weitze eagle.

I was wrong here. After closer scrutiny and observation there are only 2 eagles in this discussion; the original 3 color printed eagle and the Weitze eagle. The eagle pictures submitted by myself, madandi, sander vw and 90th light are all the same eagle. No matter what the wear is the tells show through.

1. Shape of the head.
2. Distinct wreath and claws
3. Shoulders

The head cannot be fully seen in the folded eagles because the fold and stitch job are on the top of it and this makes the beak/face look bigger

The wreath is very distinctive and the individual pieces of the wreath can be counted and compared. Adding the eagles claws which are a match too.

The one thing that cannot be distorted are the shoulders of the eagle. The shoulders are not symmetrical and are very distinct. The right shoulder, as we look at it, is deeper than the left, but the left has less of an angle from the head down.

All of these traits are exactly the same on all of the eagles post whether unissued or used.

The material that this eagle is painted on is not "French" lining material nor "French" shirt material. Paul McKee posted excellent photos of my eagle compared the "French" lining material referenced in post #19 of this thread. They were not a match. As a matter of fact they weren't even very close. In post #41, Forum member Ir143, posts a link to his site on French army shirts and states that this material wasn't French. Later he said it can be French but was used by many countries. The main thing is that the material of my unissued weitze eagle is the exact same material of the used vw sander eagle. By looking at photos in post #39 and post #63 the weave and twill is exactly the same; which is not "French" shirt nor lining material.

The manufacturing process has always bothered me. This eagle was always referred to as a printed eagle but it is not. Printing ink absorbs into the cloth and the material used to make this eagle does not. I believe that it is paint. When you run your finger over the mint example that I have I can feel a ridge. When I do this on my 3 color printed eagle it is smooth. I believe in post #28 of 90th light's eagle you can actually see a paint smear on the base material on the left side. Of late there has been another one of these eagles posted on a wool material: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=845770 Exact same eagle, exact same traits/tells and exact same Printing/painting method of application.

Overall I cannot say conclusively that this is a reproduction eagle but I know of no other insignia produced in this manner during the Third Reich era. We have shown that it was not manufactured and a "French" lining material and cast a doubt if it is "French" shirt material. I believe these are collector myths that sell the eagle.

Fred

[Fred Green]

Hello,

Another dubious eagle to add to this thread. Same pattern, same application method: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=845770

Fred

[Paul McKee]

Hello,

The manufacturing process has always bothered me. This eagle was always referred to as a printed eagle but it is not. Printing ink absorbs into the cloth and the material used to make this eagle does not. I believe that it is paint. When you run your finger over the mint example that I have I can feel a ridge. When I do this on my 3 color printed eagle it is smooth. I believe in post #28 of 90th light's eagle you can actually see a paint smear on the base material on the left side. Of late there has been another one of these eagles posted on a wool material: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=845770 Exact same eagle, exact same traits/tells and exact same Printing/painting method of application.
Fred

Fred, when I examined the eagle you sent me to compare with the lining material, my first thought was that the eagle appeared to be screen printed. Screen printing was practiced for over 1000 years in Asia, and commercial screen printing from photo-resist stencils in the west was developed in the 1930s. However it didn't come into wide commercial use until the 1950s. Depending on the consistency used, the ink can either soak in, or remain on top of the fabric substrate. Some of the more rounded and unclear images seen on these eagles can be attributed to the photo resist stencil either plugging up with dried ink, over-dilute ink bleeding, or the stencil wearing out from overuse. The best way of determining if screen printing rather than block printing was used is to look at the diagonal edge of the design and see if a "stair-step" pattern is present caused by the silk fabric carrying the stencil. Unfortunately, since these are printed on coarse fabric, the effect is obliterated. My comments come from studying serigraphy (screen printing) at the university, teaching screen printing, and commercial application. This of course may have no relevance on determining originality.

[Fred Green]

Hello Paul,

Thank you very much for your input. I always like hearing somebody explain construction.

Fred

[RobertE]

The three color eagle is the only original eagle posted here (IMO), as Fred has explained. German printed material, insignia and awards, were done on a type of linen that's hard to miss, or on a rayon material. That's pretty much it.

Either way, the ink or dye was applied with enough pressure to penetrate the backing cloth, and is evident from the backside. It does not sit on top of the material, and you can't feel it or see it when examining the material.

I know we have all see lots of this type insignia, but just to refresh our memories, here is a box of printed insignia that is done on the proper linen or rayon backing. All show bleed-through on the backs.

And here are two wound badges - also properly inked on the standard linen.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

The box of volunteer patches were printed on rayon and cotton / linen; you can see the bleed-through. Here is some rank insignia on rayon and a sleeve eagle; same thing: the ink completely penetrated and can be viewed from the reverses.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

Bulky, thicker cloth was not used on any original printed material - even the combat badges, such as infantry assault and wound badges - that were produced for wear on items in the field were produced on this flimsy stuff.

A heavy woven background with a paint-like application seems improbable, and unlike any of the other considerable printed insignia that's out there.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

The eagle posted by Sander in #63 exhibits the same "painted" look as the SS insignia making the rounds in the 1970's.

I have a fantasy tab-like shield from that period that I hope I have with me and am trying to locate. It is painted exactly like the eagle in frame #63 - and applied finish on an improbable thicker backing material.

I really enjoy collecting the variations of insignia that are out there, and think most of us do. I would like to believe in the other two forms of printed eagle shown here, but can't get past the materials used in their construction, cut lines for late insignia that should be folded in a trap shape, and other anomalies.

This is a very enjoyable and balanced read, by the way. Great civil discussion that will hopefully advance our knowledge of the subject.

s/f Robert

[madandi]

It´s hard to follow the discussion in english

Some guys talk about the color, that have been sunk in the material
My printed eagle is printed an a much thicker white material and no color has
been sunk in. The material is really hard, not like my Volkssturmarmband and my printed SS-Trap
So there are different prints on different materials.

[madandi]

I have some printed insignias put together.
Some of them are printed with the darker colors on white material
-SS-Armealge
-SS-Trapez
-Volkssturmarmband

The darker color sunk into the material and you can see them on the back more or less.

Then the breasteagle in acctepted pattern on white material with dark colors.
nothing sunk through the material, you cant see the print on the back.

The non accepted eagle is printed with white color on green backing. The white color is not sunk through the material.

And the rank-insignia. Made from green Rayon and printed with black color complete sunk through the material

[RobertE]

All of the original material you have shown penetrates the material and shows through on the backside.

The only one that does not show through that is original is the army breast eagle. Someone has hand-sewn a type of backing material behind the trapezoid to stiffen it or give it shape; this is not wartime and was added for unknown reasons IMO. If the material were to be removed, we would see the bleed-through we see on the other examples.

The thick green material used on the suspect eagle shows no reverse ink penetration, like the original insignia you and I both posted.

s/f Robert

[madandi]

Robert this is not correct. There is no stiffenermaterial at the back of the eagle.
You can see directly the back of the only layer material where the eagle is printed on.