RK KvK w/s - extreme early

[Matthieu]

That's the RK KvK I wanted to see .... .

Like I said in previous thread, I was also bidding, but due to some misunderstanding I lost it .... .

At first glance it seemed a very early 1957 issue piece with - what looks like - wartime ribbon.
Then I examined the pictures more and saw weird pebbling on the opposite side.
Clearly there was a swastika there once, now removed and refinished (?).

The quality and finish is present on that piece, but quoting Nigel .... when and by whom it lost its HK ???

Grtz,
Mathijs

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks guys,

I read a lot of interesting stuff.
And although this seems to be a rare awards, I am happy to see that it isn't dismissed upfront.
Maybe the cross in this thread will shed a light on the pebbling and a possible maker?
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=rk+kvk+S%26L

I hope the owner of this doesn't mind that I use his beautifull and rare cross for a comparisson.

[Nigel N]

Thanks for that compare shot Luud!! I actually read that thread yesterday, and might have even saved the pics, but i looked at so many KVK RK's i became cross eyed!!!
Things are now a bit clearer for me....... Having looked at the pics of the wartime S&L RK, and read Rudigers comments about the de-nazzing looking like a factory finish, and also Mathijs' comments about how much it looked like a 57er inc. the finish, heres where i'm at.............
I think this is for sure an S&L piece, maybe not wartime made, but postwar/57era?? possibly using the wartime dies, hence the need for de-nazification.
The finish on the piece appears to match good quality early 57 versions, there also seems to be a similar silver finish covering the de-nazified area, its possible that we have another very early S&L proto 57 piece, similar to Luud's Para badge??
-Nigel

[LuckyLuudje]

Sadly not so many participate like in the FJ thread while this cross is IMO as important or maybe even more important to understand S&L's manufactoring proces close around 57.

Many important and logical things have already been said by Rudiger, Mathijs and Nigel wich most I can only agree with and also helped to form my opinion.

My opinion about the RK is sofar:

-The RK is IMO one of the very earliest RK's made from the wartime S&L dies around 1957.
-The badge had to be denazified because the main goal for introducing 57's is that it doesn't contain a swass.
-The finish looks similar as used on other 57's and aplied after denazification.
-The latest wartime RK's that I have seen from S&L were the sink RK's on salesboards and the didn't have the flaw at 6 o'clock like mine has.
-As explained in the FJ thread, I believe that something happend around 1957 to the dies that caused a SUDDEN development of flaws (like for example the oaks, FJ eagle, B-frames).
-The RK looks to have been made from Buntmetal that has been silvered.
-I am not a ribbon specialist, but this ruv-negative ribbon looks similar as used on the wartime RK's and I believe that it is a wartime leftover.
-The RK looks similar as showed in the earliest catalogues and ordensjournal.
-The wartime RK's were very rare, also compared to other herstellers.
But as a 57 version I only encountered this RK with swords and have only seen 1 other RK like this without swords, so the 57's are IMO not common either.

Taking everything into account, it could well be that Rudiger's "prototype theory" could also be applied here.

I would like to know if other think the same as me and if I possibly missed something. But other opinions are welcome also!

Here is a picture of the flaw never seen on the wartime stamped S&L RK's.

[Leroy]

-As explained in the FJ thread, I believe that something happend around 1957 to the dies that caused a SUDDEN development of flaws (like for example the oaks, FJ eagle, B-frames).

I am VERY interested in this and hope someone can suggest possible answers.

[Tom B]

I agree 100% !

Hello Luud ! I have been following your thread, and I agree with your findings on this cross 100%. Job well done on your efforts ! Thank You, Tom

[Nigel N]

The flaw is very interesting!!
So, we have this RK, made from a wartime die, but not actually made during the war! So this cross is not a wartime leftover but a postwar (50's?) re-strike, But something has happened to the die between wartime pieces being made from it, and this postwar RK!! It seems to have developed a fair size flaw sometime between 1945 and 1957(ish)
I dont remember any postwar copies of this RK from S&L, dont know if anyone else has?? If the flaw is'nt thru use, then what has happened to cause it???
-Nigel017.gif

[Seewolf]

Well Luud, your pieces are great but exhausting
It´s not been done with only "Boah" or "Woohoo" or "Great piece", we really have to made our mind and keep our thoughts together to judge them

What shall i say? IMO a wartime piece with factory done denaz. Pebbling was added so they never could use this die for making TR copies, don´t forget that guys
This TR die was lost forever for S&L. Or did they made a copy from the mother die, maybe hardened it not well and so the flaws were coming up?? And that with all other wartime dies - copy - bad hardened -> flaws?

Why should they "destroy" wartime dies in adding pebbling?
Note that there are TR fakes with very early S&L setup on the market...

Or did they used another mixture of Buntmetall, which was harder, and damaged the die?


Only a few thoughts were i still don´t have an answer but IMO worth thinking more about them, especially the die copy story

[LuckyLuudje]

Hello Luud ! I have been following your thread, and I agree with your findings on this cross 100%. Job well done on your efforts ! Thank You, Tom

Thanks Tom, I knew you would like it

The flaw is very interesting!!
So, we have this RK, made from a wartime die, but not actually made during the war! So this cross is not a wartime leftover but a postwar (50's?) re-strike, But something has happened to the die between wartime pieces being made from it, and this postwar RK!! It seems to have developed a fair size flaw sometime between 1945 and 1957(ish)
I dont remember any postwar copies of this RK from S&L, dont know if anyone else has?? If the flaw is'nt thru use, then what has happened to cause it???
-Nigel[ATTACH]2090554[/ATTACH]

Like Gentry, I would also like to know what happend to the S&L dies.

I do have another version except that the swass has been cut of (before finishing).
But it is snowing right now, so I will use some old pictures.
The flaw on this cross is less pronounced.
Because it's rarity, it looks to me that the dies detoriated VERY fast

[LuckyLuudje]

Well Luud, your pieces are great but exhausting
It´s not been done with only "Boah" or "Woohoo" or "Great piece", we really have to made our mind and keep our thoughts together to judge them

Thanks Rudiger, but I think that these items are important to understand the production of S&L better

What shall i say? IMO a wartime piece with factory done denaz. Pebbling was added so they never could use this die for making TR copies, don´t forget that guys
This TR die was lost forever for S&L. Or did they made a copy from the mother die, maybe hardened it not well and so the flaws were coming up?? And that with all other wartime dies - copy - bad hardened -> flaws?

Why should they "destroy" wartime dies in adding pebbling?
Note that there are TR fakes with very early S&L setup on the market...

Or did they used another mixture of Buntmetall, which was harder, and damaged the die?

Only a few thoughts were i still don´t have an answer but IMO worth thinking more about them, especially the die copy story

I don't think the die was "destroyed".
It is easy for me to think that because I know how the back of this cross looks like.
I will show you the back where the swass has been removed (before finishing).

The mixture of a harder mixture of buntmetal that could have damaged the die sound very logical to me!
I can only guess but sofar my best guesses sofar are (and I am not a metal worker):
-the dies have been bad stored
-the dies have been exposed to excessive heat
-new tools were used with a higher pressure
-harder mixture of buntmetal damaged the dies.

[Leroy]

I assume (a dangerous thing!) that S&L during the war would have had some regular procedure in force for cleaning, maintaining, and storing dies (which are susceptable to debris accrual, rust, etc.) to keep them in good condition for use. What happens, though, when you are in production one day and then the next you have enemy soldiers in your doorway? Hard for me to believe (regardless of what some say about immediate postwar resumption of production) that regular maintenance of dies with swastikas would have been a big priority, especially when you already had lots of stuff stuff sitting around and there was not much chance anymore for for a big order coming in from the PKZ in Berlin....

To me, resumption of production after a long interruption (at some later point in time, whenever that was) using poorly maintained dies, maybe using new and different materials and maybe without all the old regular knowledgeable employees, might logically explain the sudden appearance of these flaws.

[Nigel N]

Some good thoughts guys!!!
Gentry and Luud have mentioned a few possible explanations for what might have caused these flaws to appear??
I have often heard that S&L resumed production soon after the wars end, some people think they never really stopped, but these flaws could be telling a different story??
Is it possible that S&L did'nt produce much until the 57 production period started???
Only by studying S&L's postwar pieces (TR copies & 57er) closely can we hope to find an answer to a very interesting question i think?
-Nigel

[Mike Yokum]

I don't have much to add here other than I find your research fascinating Luud. The sudden appearance of die flaws has its root in age or storage conditions it would seem. I look forward to reading more as the knowledge unfolds.