Announcement

**Gordon Craig** · 03-13-2010, 02:41 PM

Steve,

I don't know how I missed this post last month or I would have commented on it. I've never seen this camo marked to P.P. Berlin before. You've blown me away with this thread! There appear to be some differences between it and the BW Heer model. For one, I don't see any D rings over the breast pockets. Could you point out any other differences between the two camo uniforms and if you could list the makers of the P.P. Berlin marked stuff I'd really be gratefull.

Regards,

Gordon

**Collectinsteve** · 03-13-2010, 06:49 PM

Hi Gordon!

Yes, most people just assume this is a 2nd Model BGS field jacket. But the camouflage printing is not the same as BGS, though only subtly. The colors used for the rain strokes is distinctly different while the green and rust brown are a little different. The cloth is also different.

As for a comparison with a BW Splittertarn jacket... it's really not similar to it as it was a progression from 1st Model BGS field jacket. Both are almost the same as the common 3rd Model BGS field jacket, which is the one with the arm pocket and no provision for a hood.

The primary difference in construction of the Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn jacket and trousers from that of BGS is very subtle. The buttons are different, for one. Berlin used black disk buttons and small gray buttons. BGS used gray buttons throughout. The tailoring of the trousers is a little different, but I forget exactly what those differences are. VERY minor, for sure.

This is one of those rare instances where pictures don't really show the differences all that well, but if you have both in your hands at once it's obvious that they aren't the same even without detailed examination. For years I had one of these I just thought it was due to contractor differences, then I came to understand what the stamps meant!

I'll try and get some time this week to do a better comparison and to take some pics of the Berlin trousers.

Steve

**Collectinsteve** · 03-13-2010, 06:57 PM

Hmmm... I just realized I'm batting around my self made uniform designations like they are standards that everybody uses! Sorry... I do that sometimes

Here is a quick overview of the 5 known BGS Sumpftarn smock/jacket types using the terminology I came up with:

1st Model Smock

2nd Model Smock

1st Model Jacket

2nd Model Jacket (sorry... this is a Polizei one as I don't have a pic of my BGS one online at the moment)

3rd Model Jacket (early badging)

3th Model Jacket (late badging)

**Gordon Craig** · 03-13-2010, 07:22 PM

Steve,

Thanks for the comments and the fotos. BGS camo is not something that I have studied so what is posted on it very much of interest to me. Looking forward to you next posts and differences between the BGS uniforms and the P.P.Brln ones.

Regards,

Gordon

**SCHUPO** · 03-13-2010, 09:50 PM

Very interesting... Thanks for posting this. I have not seen this before either.

**Guardian 5** · 03-15-2010, 07:32 PM

New to me too and I'm liking it!

All the best - TJ

**Collectinsteve** · 03-15-2010, 10:47 PM

One curious thing is that the 2nd Model jacket appears to have come in two varieties... with provisions for shoulder rank and without. Even more curious is there is a gap between 2nd Model jacket production and 3rd Model production of about 5 years. Even stranger the 2nd Model with rank appears to have been the most commonly photographed jacket in field use, yet it is absolutely the hardest of the jackets to get. The only thing rarer is the 2nd Model smock, the one I have being the only one I've ever seen.

I think part of the mystery of the "gap" has to do with the jacket, trousers, and parka in BGS gray I have. The jacket is in the same cut as 2nd Model Sumpftarn, the trousers nearly the same as the 1958 Sumpftarn type (which I think stopped being produced in 1960), and the parka is something new but the obvious predecesor for the later Sumpftarn parka. The gray items I have are dated 1963 and 1965.

My current theory is that at around 1960 or 1962 they stopped producing Sumpftarn. In place they made the gray version of nearly identical cut. In 1967 they resumed production of Sumpftarn in the form of the 3rd Model (which has a different camouflage pattern than all the earlier stuff). This ceased in 1975 along with the change over to the less military look mandated of all federal police services.

In the "gap" years the old stocks were worn alongside the gray, much like BW Splittertarn was worn long after it was officially dropped. This would partially explain the lack of surviving examples. The rest of the explanation is that the BGS has an established history of destroying its camouflage jackets for security reasons. I suppose they could have done a great job destroying the stocks of 2nd Model stuff since I've only seen perhaps 3 or 4 surviving examples in many years of looking for them.

What I hate about this theory is it is mostly my own. Unfortunately, I've found nobody with a similar level of interest in this narrow topic. In fact, usually when I find a BGS collector and I tell him that there's 5 known types (with one significant variant) that alone is news to the collector. Heck, even the BGS museum only has one type on display!

Someday I'll find someone who knows more about this than I do. I hope it's soon too, because not knowing about this for sure is driving me nuts

Steve

**uscob** · 03-16-2010, 02:38 AM

Can't remember if there are also Trousers from Berlin but I remember that I had some Field Caps with my Jackets. It's 10 yrs. ago that I had the Stuff, but I know a guy in Berlin colecting this stuff maybe he got some of them from me.
After the wall came down, I got some grey-green Work Suits with "Latzhose" and the big Metal butons and throw them into a corner of my shop and some day's later when I wanted to fold them I thought that I didn't put DDR Raindrop Stuff at the same place and after having a closer look, they used DDR camo to produce Berlin Police stuff in 1993. Just use the camo side inside of them, so you have the plain side outside.
Nico

**Collectinsteve** · 03-16-2010, 11:54 AM

Hi Nico,

Thanks for reminding me, yet again, why I need to visit Berlin! I think a day at one of your warehouses would make my head spin!

For sure there were trousers with the Berlin Polizei uniform. I have one, but the jackets are more "common". I've never seen a hat before, but I am not surprise one existed. The genuine BGS hats are also very difficult to get.

Ah... recycled material! I've seen Blumentarn gasmask bags with Strichtarn inside and Strichtarn on the inside shoulder padding on a NVA wool uniform. One of my BW TruVsu 76 shirts has a different camo pattern on the inside pocket flaps. And then there is my 1960s Czech brown colored winter trousers with extremely rare Czech camouflage cloth on the inside as a liner! And this was long before the Green movement advocated recycling

Cheers,

Steve

**uscob** · 03-17-2010, 01:41 PM

Spoke to my friend who was in the Police. They didn't had Trousers with the Jacket and Camo saw Service only with the Schutzpolizei.
Nico

**Collectinsteve** · 03-17-2010, 01:56 PM

Well then, I have a very rare set of trousers

The one I have is definitely Berlin Polizei, not BGS. Same cloth as the jacket, slight differences than BGS trousers, and has Berlin Polizei markings.

I'll take some pictures very soon.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 03-18-2010, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Collectinsteve View Post

One curious thing is that the 2nd Model jacket appears to have come in two varieties... with provisions for shoulder rank and without. Even more curious is there is a gap between 2nd Model jacket production and 3rd Model production of about 5 years. Even stranger the 2nd Model with rank appears to have been the most commonly photographed jacket in field use, yet it is absolutely the hardest of the jackets to get. The only thing rarer is the 2nd Model smock, the one I have being the only one I've ever seen.

Steve,
Your theory is interesting about the jackets and latest 2nd model I have seen is 1963, but they are worn much later. Maybe they had surplus of these? The sumpftarn uniform was never "brought back." - there was no plan to remove them from service until police reforms in 1970s. When I still collected post-1960 BGS items, I had 3rd model jacket in the old BGS sumpftarn (not the wierd bright-colour late sumpftarn), but I sold it. Unfortunately the label was damaged, so no date.

This is my second model BGS sumpftarn jacket I posted in another thread (dated 1959). Is this the "2nd Model Jacket with rank" you mention? It has the buttons and loops for shoulderboards. I have not decided to put some on, because they not always wear them in photos and I want enlisted ranks in my collection other then only Wachtmeister ones (easiest to find).

regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 03-19-2010, 12:46 AM

Hi Klaus!

BEAUTIFUL 2nd Model jacket you have there. I've seen one of these dated 1958 with no provisions for rank. The one I have is undated and lacks provisions for rank. My guess is it was produced in 1958. Which is very curious because the 1st Model was also made in 1958. I have no pictures of the smocks being worn, but I do have a picture of the Splittertarn smock worn in 1957.

The problem with assembling this timeline is the early items did not have dates. Field photos are also often not dated, or imprecisely dated. There is also no way to tell if an item in a dated photo, say 1966, was made in that year or a reissue of a 1959 production. With that in mind, here are some thoughts based on my own personal observations:

• I have never seen any type of camouflage used prior to a 1957 dated photograph. I have not seen any undated pictures I would presume to be earlier than 1957.

• I've only seen Sumpftarn trousers dated 1958, 1959, and 1960. I have seen about 6 in person and probably another 6 online.

• I have never seen the Sumpftarn shelter dated earlier than 1959 or later than 1963. I've seen probably 10 with dates.

• I have never seen a Splittertarn shelter with a date at all. I have seen about 4 in person and another 6 online.

• I have never seen a Sumpftarn item dated 1964, 1965, or 1966.

• I have seen a Sumpftarn parka dated 1967, but never a Sumpftarn jacket dated earlier than 1968. I have seen dates on probably two or three dozen of each. I've had probably 10 or more jackets in my hands and about 4 parkas.

• The earliest dated photo I've seen with Sumpftarn is 1958. However, I have also never seen a picture with the smocks or 1st Model Jacket ever.

• In a batch of 1957-1959 photos I saw one picture of Splittertarn smocks in use, several with Splittertarn shelters worn as smocks. I presume this was from 1957 because the 1958 and 1959 pictures show Sumpftarn uniforms.

• In a batch of 1966-1968 pictures the 2nd Model Sumpftarn jacket and trousers are seen many times, but no 3rd Model Sumpftarn.

• A blue/gray version of 2nd Model was used in the middle 1960s. Since the Sumpftarn uniform was not for use in the border areas (except in time of war), it is probable that the uniform was intended for regular use while patrolling the border. I have items dated 1963 and 1965.

From the evidence of surviving examples and pictures here is a rough outline:

Splittertarn Smock and trousers - 1956 or 1957 only
Sumpftarn Smock - 1957 only
Sumpftarn 1st Model Jacket - 1957 only
Sumpftarn 2nd Model Jacket without rank - 1958 only
Sumpftarn 2nd Model Jacket with rank - 1959 through 1963
Sumpftarn 3rd Model Jacket with arm pocket - 1967 through 1975

My guess is that they produced enough jackets and trousers in the early 1960s that they did not need to produce more for the middle 1960s. Then around 1967 stocks started to run low so they started production of the 3rd Model.

Whatever the case is, they produced a great number of variations very quickly in the late 1950s. This is quite odd!! It is why for years I assumed that the Sumpftarn uniform was in use from the early 1950s. But I think that is not the case.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 03-19-2010, 12:46 PM

Steve,
You are right, 1957 is introduction date for jacket and smock in sumpftarn. Smocks were unliked by the Grenzer and not used longer very long. No idea when Berlin Polizei wore these, because I thought, that Bepo uniforms were grey version of BGS field uniforms. I assume sumpftarn Zeltbahnen issued at same time. Mine is dated 1959, but is second type sumpftarn pattern. My 1959 jacket is first type sumpftarn with elbows and shoulder flap in second type sumpftarn. This shows they changed sumpftarn pattern in 1959.

Splittertarn was introduced 1952/53 according to sources, but you never see smocks that early. There are also trousers and caps, but these were rarely ever issued. I have seen Zeltbahnen worn as ponchos around 1954/55 at earliest.

Green version for BGS introduced sometime in early 1960s, because no camo allowed on border patrols (sign of aggression to East). Before that, they wore wool uniforms or 1st Model Arbeitsanzug (also a field uniform before sumpftarn) on patrol. I think sumpftarn without shoulder flap (1st Model) is first production run only and after that, they switch. But they continue to issue these until run out (only theory here). Your is only one I see in collection. It is also strange that many of 2nd model jackets with rank provisions can be seen with no shoulderboards (but it is possible to see buttons there).

This photo appears to show 1st Model jackets. I saved it from ebay awhile ago (I did not win it). From Skiausbildung in 1958. There is no seperate shoulder flap on jacket visible:

Announcement

1960 Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn uniform

1960 Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn uniform

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread