Originally posted by JoeW
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Check post #44 or follow the link in #788 farther up on this page. -
Well, it had to be visible only in his personal file, as there is no indication of the CB on Bellwidt listing in the 1942-1944 Sturmbannfuhrer-Obersturmbannfuhrer lists.Originally posted by der-hase-fee View PostComment
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Hi Joe,
You're right about Anton Huber. I had initially checked the last full DAL that included all officer's ranks -- that of 1.12.38 -- and that column in my copy is blurred and indistinct. I now checked the DAL of 1.12.37 and, as you said, he clearly shows as holding the CB. The DAL of 1.12.37 was the first issue to provide the level of detail of non-SS awards received, so the issues earlier than that year don't list anything about the CB.
But Walter Bellwidt is another matter. I checked for him up through the last DAL which included his rank and he was an SS-Obersturmbannführer when the DAL dated 1.10.44 was published, though no CB is shown for him. That issue was published just seven months before war's end and it is hard to believe that the Party would still be correcting and updating its lists and awarding CBs 22 years after the fact...but I guess in such a huge bureaucracy, anything is possible! But the DALs don't show it.
And thanks for sharing the nice photo of OSAF Hans Ulrich Klintzsch. I've seen this photo before and note that he's wearing an SS Kepi; perhaps this photo was taken before he succeeded Emil Maurice as head of the SA or, since the SS was then just a small bodyguard formation under the SA, perhaps Klintzsch belonged to the SS prior to taking over from Maurice? I don't think the SA Kepi was in use at that early a date and, if not, then maybe Klintzsch simply continued to wear it as OSAF...
Br. JamesComment
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James, I agree with your comment about Bellwidt's DAL listing. On the other hand, Weitzel had nothing on his DAL listing for the CB in 1937 and 1938 and one would have thought that the listing for an OGF would be correct. But the CB is listed on his file card, as is Bellwidt's according to Bob C.
I tried finding the posting for Klintsch on the other forum, Axis I thought, but I failed. I seem to remember that this is an early photo of him at which time the early SA/Stosstrup AH did use the Death Head and were not necessarily SS. And that is a commercial field cap or mountain I think, not an SA Kepi.Comment
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Some final notes from the older Klietmann material:
The letter from Schwede to the Kanzlei regarding the planned Coburg celebration also included a planned restriction for the awarding of the Coburg Ehrenzeichen to those participants in the original Coburg event who were party members still in the NSDAP.
Also of interest was a letter in a 1983 issue of the magazine in response to Klietmann's article from a German collector who alledged that Hitler was not the designer of the Coburg Ehrenzeichen. The author who received one of the badges with its Besitz-Zeugnis from an original recipient in 1949, alleged that the designer was teacher named Walter. The author of the letter wrote that Hitler had only been in Coburg one time in 1922 and therefore would not have remembered the details of the Veste Coburg which was incorporated into the top of the badge. But checking the web site Hitlerpages.com, it lists Hitler visiting the city of Coburg four times after 1922 and before the 1932 anniversary. The letter included a photo of the Besitz-Zeugnis for Ernst Kuhn as well as a postcard-photo of Kuhn, a Schutz und Trutzbund flag and Hans Dietrich, one of the organizers of the Deutschen Tag.Comment
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Thanks Joe. I agree that Fritz Weitzel does not appear on the Original List nor in the '37 or '38 DAL as having received the CB, though Lumsden's list adds him in. Now, with the Bellwidt matter, it seems as though we're getting down to an esoteric level where there should be yet another list of CB recipients developed, and perhaps kept on permanent view here on WAF. Such a list would include all those from the Original List, the Lumsden supplementary list, plus anyone else who it can be established actually received the CB -- such as Bellwidt -- but who does not appear on either of the first two lists.
I am embarrassed to say that I do not have Wim Saris' book on SS caps, and I hope he can add a word about the black kepi here. In his great series on "Uniforms of the SS," Andrew Mollo says that the black kepi dates from November of 1925 (1969, Volume I, p.7). However, Tom Shutt in his "Dress and Field Service Hats of the Third Reich" (1981, Volume I, p.23), states that the black kepi came in in 1922. In the same Volume I, Mollo also provides that classic photo of a truckload of Stosstrupp men wearing what appears to be a kepi in the same color as the shirt (the photo is b/w) and the cap includes the skull and crossed bones; Mollo dates this photo to 1925.
Br. JamesComment
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[QUOTE=JoeW;5383190]Some final notes from the older Klietmann material:
The letter from Schwede to the Kanzlei regarding the planned Coburg celebration also included a planned restriction for the awarding of the Coburg Ehrenzeichen to those participants in the original Coburg event who were party members still in the NSDAP.
The above letter by Schwede-Coburg doesn't leave much room for honor awards of the Coburg Badge which seems to be the case with some of the added on names to the original list?
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Erich, that was 1932. I guess the parameters would have changed to permit the honorary awarding of the badge.Comment
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Yes, like the Blood Order and GPB to name a few. IMO, that was the main purpose of the 2nd type badges.Originally posted by JoeW View PostComment
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I wonder about Honorary Blood Orders?
Anyway, the award of the CB to Hans Dietrich who lived in Coburg and was not an SA man but participated in the German Days arrangements is deemed an original presentation, yet Schwede-Coburg who was also involved in the early party workings in Coburg at the same time is thought to have received an honorary CB? Doesn't make sense.Comment
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The 2nd pattern Blood Orders were honor awards IMO due to not being for the Putsch participation except in a few cases but for extra ordinary service to the party.Originally posted by JoeW View Post
We know that Schwede Coburg was awarded the 2nd type CB from photos,which IMO was an honor award due to his being involved in the prep work for the event rather than as part of Hitler's SA and involved in the street fighting.Comment
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If Schwede was granted an honor award for prep-work, if indeed that was the extent of his involvement, then why did Hans Dietrich receive one of the first badges as he was certainly no involved in the street fighting and was photographed in his suit?Comment
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OSAF Coburg 1922-1932 List
I found a source for a better quality reproduction of the OSAF Coburg 1922-1932 list. It is not a negative print like Ross provided and seems to be much clearer. The four pages are larger so I will use a post for each page.
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page 2
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page 3
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