KM Feldgrau Tunic vs. Feldbluse?

[JPhilip]

Hello,
in post 1, men are wearing a mix of M1920 and M1928 service tunics (M20 with eight front buttons, M28 with six only).
As already stated, the Feldblusen seen in the foreground in post 3 are M1933 (and men in the background still wear a mix of M20 & M28).

[Norm F]

collar material

Hi Norm, officer collar tabs always had the backing, you have to look to the NCOs and EM collars to see this detail. The collar in dark green was not oficially approved in the KM and it was a privite transformation IMO, and the collar tabs with the cloth backing were used on the feldgrau collars

Eduardo, if I understand correctly you mean that only the dark green-colored badge cloth collars were non-official, not that all use of badge cloth on collars as opposed to regular feldgrau cloth was non-official?
Angolia says of the Reichsmarine Rock pre-1935 "The stand-up-fall-down collar (Stehumlegekragen) was made of field-grey badge cloth or, less frequently, of field-grey basic cloth." In the old photos I began with, for some of the uniforms there seems to be a badge cloth type of texture to the collars rather than basic cloth, like Angolia says, and perhaps this was the earlier grey-colored badge cloth.
In contrast for the Feldbluse "The flat fall-down collar (Umlegekragen) was made of basic cloth, with underside normally made of field-grey moleskin fabric, and had an interior stiffening lining of padded linen fabric (Wattierleinen)."

So putting it all together, my impression is collar tabs could be applied onto badge cloth collars without a separate backing on the Reichsmarine Rock, whereas if applied to a regular feldgrau cloth collar as in the Feldbluse would need to be mounted on a badge cloth backing first. That's your "KM Model 36" Feldbluse. There's a nice consistency to the idea that insignia should be on a badge cloth backing of some kind.

(Sorry I keep harping on Angolia as if it was the only reference, but it's all I've had to go on before benefitting from all you guys!)
---Norm

[Norm F]

putting it all together so far

Hello,
in post 1, men are wearing a mix of M1920 and M1928 service tunics (M20 with eight front buttons, M28 with six only).
As already stated, the Feldblusen seen in the foreground in post 3 are M1933 (and men in the background still wear a mix of M20 & M28).

Thanks! So putting this together with Eduardo's classification and a smattering of Angolia, we have the following for Reichsmarine/Kriegsmarine Standard Issue Tunic Models:

Reichsmarine Rock:

Model 20 - Cut from front, lateral, back and skirt panels. Had a vertical centre seam at the back ending in the slash, with two buttons at the back waistline to form a belt ramp? 16 cm French cuffs, two sew-on pleated patch breast pockets and 2 slash-type hip pockets slanted rearwards, grey badge cloth or feldgrau cloth collars. Either fully lined or sometimes just above the skirt panels. 8 front buttons.

Model 28 - Same as above but with 6 front buttons.

Kriegsmarine Feldbluse:

Model 33 – Same tunic adopted by Heer, feldbluse with 4 outer pleated pockets with scalloping flaps, almost identical to model 40 Heer tunics. Five brass buttons, collar tabs without back patches and shoulder boards on feldgrau.

Model 36 - Pleated breast pockets and inside lower pockets, with still 5 brass buttons usually. Dark green back patches on the collar tabs and dark green shoulder boards.

Model 40 – Almost identical to the M36, but the collar tabs are without the back patches and the shoulder boards are in feldgrau. The buttons are usually painted.

Model 42 - Almost identical to the previous M40, but with the deletion of the pleat box on the breast pockets.

Model 43 – Identical to the previous M42, but with square-shaped pockets flaps. Some examples with 6 buttons instead the usual 5.

And one could add the statements:
1) previous models were seen for several years after the introduction of new models, especially in training units (Witness the photos of the 1928 model uniforms in 1936!)
2) Officers' tunics were another matter, have custom options like green badge cloth collars, lower patch pockets, French cuffs, brass buttons instead of field-grey, etc.

Sound good so far?
Regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

example of a KM M40

A mint example of KM Coastal Artillery M40 that's fits perfectly into this classification system was sold recently at the Collector's Guild. Has a nice detailed description.
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Krieg...s/K023856.html
Regards,
---Norm

[km-spain]

Talking only about the emblems (collar tabs, shoulders and eagles), this could be the evolution.

- Early TR years with RM rocks: collar tabs stitched directly on the collar in basic uniform cloth or with a feldgrau cloth backing; shoulders in uniform cloth and rarely in feldgrau cloth; and eagle on feldgrau backing.

- Feldbluse M33 (same model as Heer): same configuration than with the RM tunics.

- Feldbluse M36 (KM model): collar tabs with dark green cloth baking; also eagle on dark green backing; and shoulders in dark green cloth.

- Feldbluse M40 (KM model): collar tabs stitching directly on the tunic cloth collar without backing; eagle on dark feldgrau backing; and shoulders in uniform basic cloth. Is not reare to see pictures of tunics on wear that mantein the collar tabs and the eagle with the dark green backing after 1940 modifications.

- Feldbluse M42-M43 (KM models): collar tabs without backing; eagle with feldgrau backing; shoulders in tunic cloth. As a private modification sometimes the early emblems were used with these, mainly by NCOs.

[Norm F]

cloth terminology

Talking only about the emblems (collar tabs, shoulders and eagles), this could be the evolution.

- Early TR years with RM rocks: collar tabs stitched directly on the collar in basic uniform cloth or with a feldgrau cloth backing; shoulders in uniform cloth and rarely in feldgrau cloth; and eagle on feldgrau backing.

- Feldbluse M33 (same model as Heer): same configuration than with the RM tunics.

- Feldbluse M36 (KM model): collar tabs with dark green cloth baking; also eagle on dark green backing; and shoulders in dark green cloth.

- Feldbluse M40 (KM model): collar tabs stitching directly on the tunic cloth collar without backing; eagle on dark feldgrau backing; and shoulders in uniform basic cloth. Is not reare to see pictures of tunics on wear that mantein the collar tabs and the eagle with the dark green backing after 1940 modifications.

- Feldbluse M42-M43 (KM models): collar tabs without backing; eagle with feldgrau backing; shoulders in tunic cloth. As a private modification sometimes the early emblems were used with these, mainly by NCOs.

It's very interesting to see that MOD.42 photo with the breast pockets without the pleats. Can we assume this hip pockets are slash pockets, i.e. that this is a true KM Feldbluse as opposed to a Heer issue Feldbluse with KM insignia?

To try to clarify the cloth terminology further, I was using the terms uniform cloth, tunic cloth, basic cloth all as meaning the same thing, and in contrast to badge cloth which is the very fine weave, felt-like consistency cloth used to back various insignia (eagles, career badges, collar tab backings, etc.). "Feldgrau" or field grey, I was using to describe the color, not the actual cloth type --- so one could have Feldgrau basic cloth or Feldgrau badge cloth. Feldgrau as a color varied from true grey to green or olive as time progressed. Dark green likewise being a color could be applied as an adjective to either basic cloth or badge cloth.
So in the above description of insignia what is meant by "Feldgrau" - badge cloth or basic cloth?
Also it seems the M42-43 insignia configuration is the same as M40 in the above description, or am I missing something?
Regards,
---Norm

[km-spain]

It's very interesting to see that MOD.42 photo with the breast pockets without the pleats. Can we assume this hip pockets are slash pockets, i.e. that this is a true KM Feldbluse as opposed to a Heer issue Feldbluse with KM insignia?

To try to clarify the cloth terminology further, I was using the terms uniform cloth, tunic cloth, basic cloth all as meaning the same thing, and in contrast to badge cloth which is the very fine weave, felt-like consistency cloth used to back various insignia (eagles, career badges, collar tab backings, etc.). "Feldgrau" or field grey, I was using to describe the color, not the actual cloth type --- so one could have Feldgrau basic cloth or Feldgrau badge cloth. Feldgrau as a color varied from true grey to green or olive as time progressed. Dark green likewise being a color could be applied as an adjective to either basic cloth or badge cloth.
So in the above description of insignia what is meant by "Feldgrau" - badge cloth or basic cloth?
Also it seems the M42-43 insignia configuration is the same as M40 in the above description, or am I missing something?
Regards,
---Norm

Norm, M42 picture is a KM model IMO, but we can not be sure without the full image.

I'm using your same terminology basicly.

When I refer to feldgrau cloth backing and talking about the badge cloth, much more fine, and that was used in the early TR days also for the Heer emblems.

M43-43 configuration is the same that M40, the only difference is that with M40 is not rare to see eagles and collar tabs with dark green backing, and with M42-43 is much rarer.

[Norm F]

Putting it all together (again)

Okay, so here I'm trying to summarize all the KM Rock/Feldbluse identification data discussed in this thread. Many thanks for all the input so far. Based on any suggestions I'll try to update this posting with any corrections:

German Navy Standard Issue Field-Grey Tunics for EM:

Rock and Feldbluse

Reichsmarine Rock:

Model 1920 - Cut from 2 front, 2 lateral, 2 back and 2 rear skirt panels. Had a vertical centre seam at the back ending in the slash, with two buttons at the back waistline to form a belt ramp. Had 16 cm French cuffs, two sew-on pleated patch breast pockets and 2 slash-type hip pockets slanted rearwards, grey badge cloth or feldgrau cloth collars. Either fully lined in grey twill or sometimes just in the upper portions and sleeves. 8 front buttons.
(NB: Photos which nicely illustrate the construction of the panels of a Reichsmarine Rock, although on a different unlined tunic, can be seen in a WAF posting by Robert Pierce at:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...99456#poststop)
Insignia: collar made of feldgrau badge cloth or basic uniform cloth; tabs stitched directly on the collar or with a feldgrau badge cloth backing; shoulder straps in uniform cloth and rarely in feldgrau badge cloth; eagle on feldgrau badge cloth backing.

Model 1928 - Same as above but with 6 front buttons instead of 8.
Insignia: as above

Kriegsmarine Feldbluse:

Model 1933 – Same tunic adopted by Heer, i.e. feldbluse with 4 outer pleated pockets with scalloped flaps, almost identical to model 40 Heer tunics. Five brass buttons. As in the Heer model, no lining, only reinforced in the pocket sewings.
Insignia: collar made of basic uniform cloth or covered with feldgrau badge cloth; Insignia as above in the RM Rock.

Model 1936 – Diverged from Heer Feldbluse at this point. Pleated breast pockets and reverted to the internal slash lower pockets, with still 5 brass buttons. Fully lined in grey twill.
Insignia: Dark green badge cloth back patches on the collar tabs and bluish-dark green shoulder boards. Eagle on bluish-dark green badge cloth.

Model 1940 – Almost identical to the M36, but the buttons are usually painted.
Insignia: the collar tabs are without the back patches, sewn directly on the basic cloth collar, and the shoulder boards are in basic uniform cloth; eagle on dark feldgrau badge cloth backing; not uncommon to see the older dark green-backed insignia used

Model 1942 - Almost identical to the previous M40, but with the deletion of the pleat box on the breast pockets. Fully lined in grey twill or many times in M42-43 tunics in blue.
Insignia: as for Model 1940, but now rare to see the older green-backed insignia used.

Model 1943 – Identical to the previous M42, but with square-shaped pockets flaps. Some examples with 6 buttons instead the usual 5

Additional Points:
1) Previous models were seen for several years after the introduction of new models, especially in training units (Witness the photos of the 1928 model uniforms in 1936 Ships Cadre Batallions!)
2) Dark green badge cloth collars on KM EM Feldbluse were likely tailored alterations as opposed to standard issue.
3) Officers' tunics were another matter, tailor made and having custom options like green badge cloth collars, lower patch pockets, French cuffs, brass buttons instead of field-grey, etc. Belt hooks, eyelets and support straps were omitted and shoulder boards were usually the sew-in variety.

Sources:
Angolia and Schlict – Die Kriegsmarine, vol 3
Eduardo (KM Spain) from Wehrmacht-Awards Forum
JPhilip from Wehrmacht-Awards Forum

[Norm F]

2 more examples

I just found another photo with a couple of Feldbluse from 1944. On the far left is an officer wearing what we're now calling a model 1942 KM Feldbluse with the plain (non-pleated) upper pockets. On the far right is an officer's tunic with custom dark-green collar.

[Norm F]

with cuffs

In this view, one can see the tailored French cuffs on the right hand side officer's tunic.
Regards,
---Norm

[NickG]

Interesting thread. Here is one of my Coastal uniforms with 5 button front, scalloped pocket flaps, unpleated so no pocket pleats and internal slash skirt pockets.
Notice the collar! Tunic is field worn with several patch repairs...even where the breast eagle is located, note also left sleeve repair!

[NickG]

a look underneath the collar...yes it started life as a green collar KM tunic BUT not an early one...
as it has no pocket pleats.... I guess that makes it an M42?
Either the collar was repaired or just updated to an "all field gray" look!

[NickG]

Makes you wonder, was it a private unauthorized alteration, this green collar ?
and the soldier was forced to cover it back up with field gray wool? or a repair?
If I open it up I will know! So I was thinking about pealing back the field gray added collar covering
to see what the original collar in green looks like, but decided to leave it alone...
The field gray btw is a slightly different shade in comparison with the tunic....not exactly matching...

[km-spain]

About the lining of the feldbluse:

- M33 as in the Heer model, no lined only reinforced in the pocket sewings.

- Since M36 to M43 fully lined in grey twill and many times in M42-43 tunics in blue.

[km-spain]

On the far left is an officer wearing what we're now calling a model 1942 KM Feldbluse with the plain (non-pleated) upper pockets.

Interesting pictures again Norm, but the most interesting is that this man in wearing the blue visor cap with the feldgrau uniform, seen very rarely.