Naval Honour Role Clasp Variation

[rhudspith]

I have been looking at these for a while and found there to be a generally accepted version among collectors where the pins on the reverse are short and pointed.

I was looking at the recent one as part of a group up for sale and noted a longer style pin on the reverse which I had not seen before. Any thoughts?, is this a less common variation?

[MH184]

Long prongs and blunt, a fake ! I had one just like this 100% perfect from the front and underside. I posted it on the forum and Gordon Williamson and several others with these awards doubted it for sure. Since then I've seen several of these like this for sale on UK sites, I can PM you with the details of who and where if you like.

There is a thread on mine some where, this is a crap pic of mine as I don't have any better ones I can find at the moment. I then swopped it back to the dealer for one with shorter prongs and needle points, also a fake.

Kind regards,

Marcus

[MH184]

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[MH184]

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[W. C. Stump]

I tend to disagree with the blunt/sharp pin theory. It is well know that the Kreigsmarine didn't award as many of these clasps as did the Herr and Luftwaffe, but I would imagine that more than one firm produced them for the Kreigsmarine. The same mystery applies to the solid space under the anchor vs. the open space. I have seen this debated many times as to which is original or fake. I say that both may have been original. I personally have a cased Kreigsmarine Honor roll clasp with the sharp pins that came from directly from a U. S. veteran. I feel confident in the fact that I know the source, but still doesn't alter my thinking that the blunt pins might be original. This is especially true knowing the source of the one here posted and the dealer's reputation for knowledge and selling only authentic items.

[MH184]

I now know the dealer in question, that dosen't make him infalliable but it does pose questions because of his knowledge and I'd trust him as dealer 101% without hesitation. I'm only a novice and can't speak on this, you Bill also know more than I ever will, I guess on this award the general opinion is formed on the accepted norm of genuine awards owned and known to exist so far.

I tend to agree with the fact that variations could and most possibly exist, why go to all the bother of faking a nice looking badge and leave sloopy prongs..........I don't know. Maybe mine was genuine then, on such an award for peice of mind since I've had two 'fakes' of this one now, I would prefer the accepted norm.

One point that bothers though, I've encoutered several of these long blunt pronged awards in the recent past on a quest to replace the 'fakes' I had.

I've seen several of these boxed or unboxed in mint condition on several British dealers sites all around 900 unboxed or 1300 boxed. On one of the very same sites they had an accepted as the original style Naval Roll at a later date for 1600 pounds, Regimentals that is.

Kind regards,

Marcus

[JAMES.M]

I wonder why, if it were agreed that there were the two styles of clasps, the pointed pin version is the only one you really see when found cased. That’s not to say that the blunt pinned ones are not out there, but, I can’t remember seeing one. I have had several clasps from different vet buys over the years, and I’ve never encountered one with blunt pins. If there were two manufactures of these, then you would think that there would be a blunt one show up with the pointed ones. I can only assume that they would be housed in the same place, once they made it to the naval base, as where a lot of these were picked up. It’s not like they had to be housed separately because they came from two different manufactures. When I have seen the blunt ones, they are either on a very short piece of ribbon, or, they are attached in a manner that would not be fitting for the award case. Could we get a close up of the two styles, side by side? It could prove interesting.

Cheers,
James

[MH184]

Heres the one I call the needle point fake, the obverse of the award is less convincing ( got me though......again) and the prongs are shorter but as you can see are very sharp and pointed !!

For more pics do a search on Navy Honour Roll and look under my name, for the first one, Navy Honour RollHi.

Kind regards,

Marcus


THIS IS THE NEEDLE POINT FAKE not the fake shown above in my last post.

[MH184]

needle

[MH184]

needle 2

[MH184]

OBERVERSE OF LONG PRONG believed to be a fake, that is to convential thought and accepted norm.

[W. C. Stump]

Here is the short sharp prong version I have in my collection.

[JAMES.M]

Here's a couple more to look at!

Cheers,
James

[JAMES.M]

Here's the back.

[Rick Research]

Logic? Reason? Reality Check?

The loaves and fishes were a miracle. I sure guess the same thing MUST be going on here!

THIRTY-SEVEN awarded. <----- Statistical Reality Check.

OK, so obviously they were contracted in 1944 at a larger number--

none of which were ever awarded to ANYBODY, whatever that "batch" made's production run was. 500? 1,000? They're flimsy, cheap, easily cranked out... so "why not" 50,000? Or... 1,000,000???

But--and it is usually beyond trying to use logic on matters like this where statistical reality never intrudes ugly facts over wishful thinking--

1) in the ENTIRE LAST YEAR of the war, the German Navy awarded 37 of these. Somehow that would not inspire confidence in fantasizing that tens of thousands WERE sitting around in crates, never issued, so that not only everybody who wants one now CAN have one, but lots of people have and have had more than one, nor

2) that with MINISCULE wartime need, more than one "trial run" firm would have made these.

It makes no business sense-- not that THAT ever counts.

There are 37 awarded pieces. Try-- just TRY and FIND one of THOSE (let alone MORE than one of THOSE THIRTY SEVEN) and compare a KNOWN, DOCUMENTED example with one of the "zillions" of "originals" and "variants."

3) You all can compare all the examples you like and that proves nothing except that the zillions of KNOWABLE fakes out there obviously all match, since they ARE in mass production from the same (BAD!!!) sources. And with so MANY being churned out, of course there is more than one "variant" greedy forger marketing to so much demand... for such incredibly RARE items.

Without KNOWING what an AWARDED ORIGINAL with verifiable documentation looks like (not Dealer Soandso Loves Puppies So It MUST Be "Good"... because unless Dealer Soandso has had and recorded a verifiable "virgin" recipient's documented example...)...

again, it is ONLY logical to "benchmark" ANY of these from the possession of an original recipient's group. All else is unsupported and unsupportable speculation.

I have no idea who the dealer is you are all referring to, but how does ANY mortal born of woman become an "expert" on something only awarded 37 times? How MANY of THOSE verifiable, documented, original recipient pieces HAVE been handled by anyone to MAKE "expertise" on THIS badge? Being the World Renowned Expert on anything ELSE does NOT make expertise on THIS award.

"Believing" that any one of these IS original does not make it so. Hope isn't evidence, and faith isn't proof.