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NSDAP 25 year Long Service award

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    #61
    This model have been considered good in past threads at this forum, by several people. Now the things are really messed up.
    Considering that this award have had more than one maker it is not reasonable to consider the 19 marked one the only good example.

    Comment

      #62
      Hi everyone

      Why shouldn't there be more makers? I would guees that the same tooling were made to make all three grades just different finnishing.

      About the "flawed wing" type I like Stans sample and thinks, if Bob's the same" that we can be pretty certain that they are period. I think it safe to asume that Jeffs is the same type.

      Comparing Stans and Jeffs measurements (if they are correctly measured) shows Jeffs being markedly smaller. Usually this in itself would, when we discuss badges, would make us deem it as being a cast copy.

      Look at the new comparisons (Jeff could you make/post better highres straigth on pics?) they show big differences in the detailing of the ribbing, eagles head, enamel etc. again a feature that, in other cases would deem it as being a fake.

      Cheers Thomas
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #63
        rev
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #64
          Considering the photo of the 2 pieces together, the differences are quite obvious. I would not want to add the piece under discusion to my collection.

          Comment

            #65
            Thomas, the dimensions of Jeff's medal are the same as the "19" manufactured awards. So you are saying that Jeff's was cast from Stan's model resulting in the smaller but actual accurate original dimensions, as it has the same mold error in the feather and the "O" at the top. And the alleged casting was reassembled with the cross in reverse but the eagle/wreath at the same off level cant. I can't make a judgement on the comparative colors using digital photographs. Too many variables of type of light can afffect color.

            Christopher, did the regulation awarding the party long service cross to those who died in service to the party specify the 25 year cross? In early 1944, the party authorized the awarding of the party long service award to those party members killed in combat and in air raids. But the 25 year cross was not specified.

            Regarding the number of makers, the bronze and silver awards were in production for two years before the 25 year award was authorized for release. Is "19" the only maker mark seen on any of the party long service awards?

            Comment

              #66
              NSDAP 25 yr cross

              Joe,

              You incorrectly state that my (Dodkin's) Cross has an "o" on the reverse upper arm. It does not.

              Stan
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #67
                Joe your statement, "Christopher, did the regulation awarding the party long service cross to those who died in service to the party specify the 25 year cross? In early 1944, the party authorized the awarding of the party long service award to those party members killed in combat and in air raids. But the 25 year cross was not specified." ,IS CORRECT. THE 25 YEAR CROSS IS THAT WHICH WAS IMPLIED. It was the highest grade, thus that which would have been confered. Party members, would have in many cases, held the 10 and 15 year cross. It would have been inapropreate to have confered the lesser grade on the deceased. No bar was authorised, thus this could have been applied to the relavent cross or cross's already held. The theroy and I state theroy, for the varrious ribbons was to distinguish the award as, 25 year service, service in the SA and those who had died in the service of the party.

                The two proto types were to go on top of the standard 25 year cross. Thus you had in effect, as with the Eagle Order, a 3rd class, 2nd class and 1st class.

                Comment

                  #68
                  Stan, I apologize for my incorrect statement that your cross had the "O" on the reverse. I tried to keep notes in memory rather than writing them down. But I should have recognized that it had none as it was posted on another thread.

                  So there are three variations of unmarked crosses: Stan's (like Bob Hritz's from another thread) and the two "O" varieties that Jeff and ChrisH put forth. I wonder if ChrisH purchased that 25 cross that he showed in another thread. I would like to know the measurements.

                  Warlord, it certainly seems logical that the gold cross would have been conferred, but have you discovered any substantiating information to support the theory that the 25 cross was implied? And you believe the brooch style (a la Angolia) was a prototype for a higher grade of 25 year cross?

                  Did the Littlejohn documentation that you purchased include the purchase ledger and material of Dodkins too?

                  Comment

                    #69
                    "Warlord, it certainly seems logical that the gold cross would have been conferred, but have you discovered any substantiating information to support the theory that the 25 cross was implied?" This is normal practice with the revamp of Awards. In the case of British awards, the add on takes the possition of the last. If you look at Dohler, you will see the enabling orders, when the award is upgraded, all the enobling orders of those awards that were included are also upgraded. This reduces secondry orders and covers all.

                    "And you believe the brooch style (a la Angolia) was a prototype for a higher grade of 25 year cross?" I have posted the information and photo on the forum. Please look I think this will tell all.

                    http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=881

                    "Did the Littlejohn documentation that you purchased include the purchase ledger and material of Dodkins too?" The David Littlejohn archieve did not hold this. However I was given a lot of the Dodkins reference material sepersatly after his death. I have his purchase register.

                    Comment

                      #70
                      Thank you for the explanation Chris. I can see the differences from your forum posting. So Angolia's was the second example of the prototype "neck order" that you mention. I wonder how it became mounted on the button hole bow that was meant for the miniatures to be worn with by male and female party members in civilian clothing.

                      Comment

                        #71
                        Joe, I think we are a little a drift. The Piece shown in Angolia, is the piece I show on the forum. It is a sealed pattern. This was in the collection of Lother Hartung. Both the neck and pin backed cross were those sent for approval. These are now with Wietzer. The other nown set like wise are identical and form another sealed pattern set. Hence both known sets are identical but I think by different manufacturers. The neck suspender is larger than that enployed on the minature bow. My gut reaction is these were sent for approvsl at the time of reavaluating the 25 year award status. This as said before would explain the three ribbon types. But having said all this these awards, when original, are of the highest rarity. The minature is rarer than Hens teath. There are very good copys out there, and unfortunatly I think the one that started the debate is just that. As a price view, the sealed patterns are Euros 25,000.00 and 23,000.00. An original thin cross 5000.00 and the thiker 4500.00. That is to say if your are lucky enough to find one. Minature, well think 1500.00 Euros.

                        Comment

                          #72
                          I found a miniature 25 year uniface version for stickpin mislabelled in a dealer's "dollar bin". It is RZM marked M11/1 (code for NSDAP Miniatures), and measures 11 mm across (smaller than the 16mm mini double-faced medal and larger than the 9mm stickpin version).

                          You can see a photo of it here: http://www.worldwarmilitaria.com/for...ed=1#post16887
                          Last edited by sjl; 01-07-2009, 02:48 PM.

                          Comment

                            #73
                            These stick pins are also extreemly unussual. You fined them in the 2 sizes, 11mm and 9mm. Again the whole of this serries of awards are much miss understood and appreciated. In my view far rarer than the Blood ORDER.

                            Comment

                              #74
                              Thomas,

                              Here are some more pictures.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #75
                                And another.

                                I will try and take some better pictures, these ones did not turn out as I hoped.
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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