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**DaveR** · 03-01-2013, 09:34 AM

just my observations, but the knot shown does not match the design of the one shown in the link. i also wonder if that knot was ever on a dagger except for this picture, because it shows no sign of having been properly attached to the grip, just no sign of use at all. the scabbard looks like its had a rougher life than the dagger grip area. but i think its just from handeling. the hangers may be a vareation i'm just not familiar with. usually when i see the delux buckle and slides it usually has the delux clips too, like the ones shown on the link. i'm not an expert so take my observations with a grain of salt.

**Frogprince** · 03-01-2013, 01:48 PM

What the description in the link posted says is: ................ "General Officer's Hangers".............."hangers - showing light wear to fabric and gold General Officer's fittings". Which is what I believe the regulations state when differentiating between the highest and lower grades of officers. FP

**Nolan** · 03-01-2013, 06:04 PM

Way to go, stick a goldy coloured portopee on a bog standard Luft and call it a generals

**petopoint** · 03-01-2013, 06:28 PM

Hmmm???

Curious, if I left a standard Silver Luft Portapee outdoors a few days (near to where my dog urinates). Then attach it to a Reg. 2nd model Luft dagger with hangers,
Could I get two or three times the going rate too?

**collecting** · 03-02-2013, 03:36 AM

Hi,

there was an interesting discussion in anothe forum about Generals daggers.

Period regulation said that

Luftwaffen dagger hanging device for generals will be conformed with the hanging device for generals of the army, it will receive a gold-coloured buckle and snap hook.

So this is a regular 2nd model with an odd Portepee imho.

Regards;
Collecting

**DaveR** · 03-02-2013, 08:57 AM

with any luck the regulation of the hangers having gold colored fittings should put an end to the idea that gold color hangers just being zink cromate plating

**Frogprince** · 03-02-2013, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by DaveR View Post

with any luck the regulation of the hangers having gold colored fittings should put an end to the idea that gold color hangers just being zink cromate plating

If a careful look is taken at the hangers of Tom Johnson’s example they are gold colored even in the deepest recesses. But with the zinc phosphate/zinc example posted here we see three finishes. Zinc phosphate (matte gray), zinc chromate (which is a period gold color anti-corrosion treatment), and in some places with high wear points a silverish bare metal zinc that has not turned dull yet.

And posted below is a link to a discussion with “golden” colored daggers/scabbards. Which if it or the one here on WAF is read, as I recall has a brief discussion on the adhesion problems with zinc chromate that make it relatively easy to remove the matte gray finish if the phosphate application was done under less than optimal conditions. With even in the modern era metal finishers still having a difficult time unless certain protocols are followed. And my point being that that a very careful examination is needed IMO before paying a “General Officer’s” price for a set of hangers that could just be an ordinary set that has been altered by removing the topmost part of the finish. Which I think can perhaps be better seen with some of the different types of examples from the other thread.

PS: And for those who may not remember the other discussions, the focal point was not the gold colored colored hangers which are in the regulations. But all of the supposedly "General Officer's - gold” colored (Army and Luftwaffe) daggers/scabbards as the primary topic, with the inclusion of a set of altered hangers in one of them as a side issue that was not really discussed, but was included as an additional reference example. FP

http://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbth...=254879&page=3

**DaveR** · 03-03-2013, 09:50 AM

looking at the hanger buckles shown with the arrows. i see the high points showing the finish is worn off showing the gray base metal. but if any cares to notice all the recessed areas still show the gold wash. if that gold wash ever had any other finish over it, at least SOME of that supposed finish that would be over the zinc cromate primer would still be there in the recesses. but even in the deepest recesses of the oak leaves etc, it shows a consistant gold finish. my understanding is that " general staff" does not mean Generals only, but the staff officers under them. like the difference between a field officer and an administrative officer. in my 30 years of collecting, this has been the only opinion i have ever heard that it is a zink primer showing and not a gold wash finish. with out absolute proof that these hangers did not leave the factory with a gold wash. i think most collectors will keep the opinion they are gold washed and not the primer. every dealers site will say they are gold washed hangers. but like many things with out proof its just guess work.

**Frogprince** · 03-03-2013, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by DaveR View Post

looking at the hanger buckles shown with the arrows. i see the high points showing the finish is worn off showing the gray base metal. but if any cares to notice all the recessed areas still show the gold wash. if that gold wash ever had any other finish over it, at least SOME of that supposed finish that would be over the zinc cromate primer would still be there in the recesses. but even in the deepest recesses of the oak leaves etc, it shows a consistant gold finish. my understanding is that " general staff" does not mean Generals only, but the staff officers under them. like the difference between a field officer and an administrative officer. in my 30 years of collecting, this has been the only opinion i have ever heard that it is a zink primer showing and not a gold wash finish. with out absolute proof that these hangers did not leave the factory with a gold wash. i think most collectors will keep the opinion they are gold washed and not the primer. every dealers site will say they are gold washed hangers. but like many things with out proof its just guess work.

Some dealers are now advertising “anodized” German and other service bayonets for sale - so perhaps I shouldn't be that surprised at how some collectors/others are misinterpreting objective data. The zinc chromate that was mentioned is NOT a primer. It’s a metal finish. And if the top left of the buckle part is looked at it’s also a matte gray inside the recesses. With the multiple "golden" dagger discussions another sources of pictures - I’m out of time this AM, but perhaps later today I can post pictures with an arrow or two of the buckle and keeper showing where to look.

Here is a link: Grade 8 Steel Hex Bolt, Zinc Yellow-Chromate Plated Finish ................ FP

http://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Chromat.../dp/B005LEGS9M

**Frogprince** · 03-04-2013, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by DaveR View Post

looking at the hanger buckles shown with the arrows. i see the high points showing the finish is worn off showing the gray base metal. but if any cares to notice all the recessed areas still show the gold wash. if that gold wash ever had any other finish over it, at least SOME of that supposed finish that would be over the zinc cromate primer would still be there in the recesses. but even in the deepest recesses of the oak leaves etc, it shows a consistant gold finish ......................... in my 30 years of collecting, this has been the only opinion i have ever heard that it is a zink primer showing and not a gold wash finish. with out absolute proof that these hangers did not leave the factory with a gold wash. i think most collectors will keep the opinion they are gold washed and not the primer. every dealers site will say they are gold washed hangers. but like many things with out proof its just guess work.

I am going to have to also respectfully disagree with the above in that with the separate image of the keeper by itself, the arrows to the left were intended to show the more recently abraded bare metal exposed portions of the raised areas, contrasted with the bare aged zinc appearance in the recesses next to them. And with those on the right, the matte gray being seen with both the raised and recessed portions.

With (regrettably) the image itself becoming more unfocused on the right side as compared to the left. So with that in mind, the image here has red arrows showing a matte gray inside the recessed areas in multiple areas, and light green arrows where the appearance is more of a dull/aged bare zinc in both exposed and recessed areas.

And my point still being that a very careful examination is needed IMO before paying a “General Officer’s” price for a set of hangers - that could just be an ordinary set that has been altered by removing the topmost portion of the finish. Just like the supposedly “golden - General Officer’s” daggers themselves. When what collectors were actually paying (a sometimes very substantial) premium for were standard daggers with the original exterior layer of finish removed. FP

**DaveR** · 03-04-2013, 08:43 PM

your posts are getting confiusing. in one post you say the zinc is NOT A PRIMER it is a finish. and you provide a link to show. in the next post the zinc is a primer with a gray matte finish that has been removed on some hangers. pick one. and again these are general staff hangers in question . NOT HANGERS FOR A GENERALS DAGGER. they are not uncommon. its not about any other gold daggers only these types of hangers, the golden wash only seen on the delux style hangers and not on the plain type. and if the sales catalogues say they can be orderd with gold wash fitting. i fail to see the issue at all about zinc. you are the only one with this idea from what i have read. you are entitled to it.
but you see this same type of gold wash and fire guilding on other tr items like badges too. i have nothing more to say on the matter.

**Frogprince** · 03-04-2013, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by DaveR View Post

your posts are getting confiusing. in one post you say the zinc is NOT A PRIMER it is a finish. and you provide a link to show. in the next post the zinc is a primer with a gray matte finish that has been removed on some hangers. pick one. and again these are general staff hangers in question . NOT HANGERS FOR A GENERALS DAGGER. they are not uncommon. its not about any other gold daggers only these types of hangers, the golden wash only seen on the delux style hangers and not on the plain type. and if the sales catalogues say they can be orderd with gold wash fitting. i fail to see the issue at all about zinc. you are the only one with this idea from what i have read. you are entitled to it.
but you see this same type of gold wash and fire guilding on other tr items like badges too. i have nothing more to say on the matter.

Dave, ............ Hmmmmmm .................... I never ever said that the matte gray was a primer, but that seems to be your misinterpretation of what I was saying. Would it be clearer to you if I used the term “airplane gray”, which I’ve seen in some sales brochures for TR era daggers? Which of course is not an expression you will see in any TR period German documents, but instead seems to be a postwar American invention. With the actual period German wording for the finish corresponding to the English language expression referring to zinc phosphate. Which usually shows up in images (and “in hand”) as a matte gray in color. Being another type of metal finish, not a paint. And all of the references to zinc having to do with it being used as a later replacement base metal for all sorts of items.

With for example, the set of hangers that is on Tom Johnson’s dagger showing a perfectly normal gray/silverish color base metal on the ends of the snap hooks where the gold colored finish has worn off. And your reference to “fire gilding” having nothing to do that I can see with the matter at hand. As it’s an entirely different process that would in all probability melt lesser base metals like zinc or aluminum before the gold amalgam itself melted/bonded to the base metal.

And lastly, what I was using as a basis for my statements was what I believe to be period documentation in Fraktur (script which I admittedly find difficult to read) that says as one paragraph caption: “Dolch für Generale” - along with additional documentation that says that dagger hanging devices for Luftwaffe Generals were to conform in color with those for German Army Generals. And the thread starter and Tom Johnson’s dagger both labeled as Luftwaffe General's daggers the original topics under discussion. Until of course you decided to bring up zinc chromate which can be a primer in the form of paint - but paint is not what I was making a reference to as all those “golden” daggers on the other threads I would hope clearly demonstrated. FP

**DaveR** · 03-05-2013, 09:44 AM

nothing more to say if you cant read what i wrote. i said nothing at all about the matte gray being a primer. re read please. you will notice i said the matte gray as a FINISH over the so called zinc primer. because you stated that the matte gray finish was removed leaving the zinc primer showing.
please leave " golden daggers" from other threads out of it. they have nothing to do with this type of dagger hanger.

**Frogprince** · 03-05-2013, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by DaveR View Post

nothing more to say if you cant read what i wrote. i said nothing at all about the matte gray being a primer. re read please. you will notice i said the matte gray as a FINISH over the so called zinc primer. because you stated that the matte gray finish was removed leaving the zinc primer showing.
please leave " golden daggers" from other threads out of it. they have nothing to do with this type of dagger hanger.

Dave, Let me see if this works, and I will try to be brief: “primer” is what you keep referring to. But what I first said was “zinc chromate (which is a period gold color anti-corrosion treatment)”. And while “primer” is not in my vocabulary when referring to this type of a metal finish, it seems to me that you are equating “treatment” to a “primer”. When in fact the zinc chromate finish on the bolts I posted was a final finishing/manufacturing process (treatment) to help prevent or at least retard a specific kind of corrosion on zinc. And the “golden” daggers are relevant. Because dagger after dagger that still has traces of (matte gray) zinc phosphate as the intended final finish tucked away in corners and recesses on top of the gold colored finish show that it was in period use. Which is not to say that it was used universally, or that the chromium that was needed did not became another restricted material just like earlier copper, and later aluminum (etc). FP

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