Panzer M43 for Review

[Daniel.S]

What I find really interesting is that all these caps are all marked '57'

Always the single size marking. Often '57'. I see them on facebook fairly often as well from a variety of sellers worldwide.

I guess this is one of the issues, whoever is making these things probably is going to read this thread and adjust their markings accordingly,

Regards,
-Steve

Hello Steve.

Only an total idiot faker would make Heer em m43 hats with only size markings. This has been known for years and is nothing new. I dont get your point?

The good ones are seen on most fairs, always in small numbers and with known rbn markings, close, but still fake. Most would say they are orginal, they are that good. They are also usually priced with about 70% of market value for quick sale.

[Steve Turner]

Hi Steve, the single button caps aren’t the conversation here with this one. Nor is there a discussion on ONLY a size stamp. I’ve pointed out the fact an RBNr exists and provided a photo which shows at the least that SOMETHING is there than just the original faded size stamp that has been markered over. But I’m curious if you’re your trying to imply that all size stamped only caps should be suspect now? The construction of this cap is also not similar in construction like you had originally pointed out in the first comparison of the Bergmutze thread. So where are you going with this?

Hi Dave,

It's just an observation that a lot of these caps have the lone '57' size stamp. Not all '57' caps are fake, it just seems to me most of the bad caps are marked this way. Hope you will understand. Of course there is also bad caps with fake RBNr etc. and also real M43 caps with just size stamps (Although they are certainly not common!).

If you don't mind can we see a photo of your single button M43 cap size stamp and the size stamp in this cap next to each other to see if they're identical? Maybe that will prove or disprove my theory on these.

-Steve

[Dave Wyatt]

Side by side. Not the same type of stamp, even if the marker was not applied over it.

I do want to note, that the single button Heer M43 will be posted as well. Although, after disscusing it with others off the forum, I’ll be the first to admit that I think the single button has too many issues and will be removed from the site completely.

As for the M43 Panzer cap, I’ve posted a link to this discussion on its sales page for any potential buyer.

[Steve Turner]

Side by side. Not the same type of stamp, even if the marker was not applied over it.

I do want to note, that the single button Heer M43 will be posted as well. Although, after disscusing it with others off the forum, I’ll be the first to admit that I think the single button has too many issues and will be removed from the site completely.

As for the M43 Panzer cap, I’ve posted a link to this discussion on its sales page for any potential buyer.

Thanks for the additional photos Dave. Let me just say again I think you're a stand up dealer for posting these for discussion.

If you go to Oakleaf he is selling a very similar panzer cap and also a nearly identical single button M43 cap. Of course, for some bizarre reason both are also marked '57'

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/1510h1.html

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/159h4.html

Daniel, I don't know why all these caps are marked '57' ? Just an observation but all these caps appearing on the marked at once all only marked '57' seems very strange......

Regards,
-Steve

[Willi Z.]

What is the average size of a visor, overseas, or M43 cap? There are 9 sizes of FJ helmet liners. Size 57 is in the middle of 53 to 61. I think there is a reason for this.

[Dave Wyatt]

I was asked for my assessment on the cap so I will give what I see in hand. These are the merits which gave me, and several other well known collectors whose names I will not mention, a good feeling when viewing this cap in hand at SOS and later at the MAX show this past year.

Firstly, because the stampings usually are the first thing a cloth guy will go to, I looked at the next thing which is the insignia. The thread used to attach the trapezoid shows the same wear and consistency as the construction stitching of the cap. The application also had a slight overshooting of the upper corners that I think most of us like to see in later mass produced caps. I think the only thing that could have been better is if the insignia thread had been sewn over when the cap was constructed after the insignia was put on.

For the button attachment and button holes, the method used was also slightly sloppy which, for me, was another good indicator. The buttons have also made a nice imprint on the sewn button holes, and the button hole threads directly under the buttons have not changed in color as much as the exposed areas have.

The wool on the exterior has less nap and color than the areas hidden by the fold of the earflaps. The thread in these areas is also darker in color and has not faded like those in the exposed areas.

The interior rayon lining, even though I believe the cap has been cleaned at some point, shows slight wear. Hard to explain in words, but it's like the rayon has settled in the folds and the rayon has a slicker look on the high points where it sat against a surface and worn slightly. I believe that had the cap not possibly been cleaned this wear would show much more.

The stampings inside the cap I looked at last only because I didn't have much to go off from the start. So I looked at the cap for its merits of construction first. I'll be honest, at first when I looked inside, the size stamp this is all I saw, and it didn't look right. Looking closer I realized something had been done to it. The lower faded magic marker streak made me realize the original stamp had faded and someone had filled in what they could see very sloppy. For sure the original stamp was seen on the edges of the marker. I then noticed a very faint line that looked like it could possibly be another stamp. This was when I took the cap to several others at SOS to see if they could see this faint mark too, or if it was me. I also wanted to get other opinions on the cap in a whole. The other stamp was seen, there is another stamp there for sure. As I have said, I cannot get a photo of it to show it as well as it can be seen in hand. The conversations that ensued were that maybe something had happened, like cleaning/washing, and is most likely why the size stamp had been filled in, and the other was too far gone to attempt to fill in. I personally think it would have been better to have not filled in the size stamp if someone was making a cap to deceive another collector. In my logic, the faded size stamp would had a better chance at deceiving. I also think that more emphasis would have been put on the interior to make it look more worn than what it is. I've included photos of the faded stamp with one photo enhanced to try to get this thing to stand out a little more on a photo.

This is only what I see and the conclusions I drew. As I've said before on both posts, I have immense respect for the community here and their opinons. When the cap was originally questioned I wanted to make it known that we stand behind what we sell and will hide nothing, so I initiated this post. I've also added a link to this thread on the sales post of the cap for any potential buyer to read this discussion so they can decide fo themselves if the cap is for them or not prior to purchase.


-Dave Wyatt

[TWS]

What is the average size of a visor, overseas, or M43 cap? There are 9 sizes of FJ helmet liners. Size 57 is in the middle of 53 to 61. I think there is a reason for this.

Based on my collection and collecting experience of both helmets and other headgear, if 57 is not the most common size then it has to be the second most common. I own more size 57 pieces than any other single size (out of over 60 pieces of headgear).

[Hasse.M]

Based on my collection and collecting experience of both helmets and other headgear, if 57 is not the most common size then it has to be the second most common. I own more size 57 pieces than any other single size (out of over 60 pieces of headgear).

Thats my experience to, 56, 57, 58 is the most encountered sizes.

[Zauberflöte]

Based on my collection and collecting experience of both helmets and other headgear, if 57 is not the most common size then it has to be the second most common. I own more size 57 pieces than any other single size (out of over 60 pieces of headgear).

I agree and thus not because all fakes are made in this size.

@Dave; wise decision that you have removed the single button Heer M43 from your site. As were the opinions can legitimate differ on the Panzer cap, IMHO this should not be the case with the single button one.

[BenVK]

Hi Dave, thanks for your observations.
You might want to try a UV lamp on the faded ink stamps. It sometimes help see them more clearly.

Also, I think it would help if we could have a closer look at the liner, particularly around the seam where it joins the black fabric.
I'm expecting the see discoloration of the liner around that seam, similar to it being bleached.

[Steve Turner]

What is the average size of a visor, overseas, or M43 cap? There are 9 sizes of FJ helmet liners. Size 57 is in the middle of 53 to 61. I think there is a reason for this.

Hi Willi,

Small sizes are most often encountered in the original caps.

I think whoever made a lot of the fake caps liked the size '57' stamp, but that's just my opinion. Of course not all lone '57' marked caps are automatically bad, it's just the most common marking appearing in the recent fakes.

I think we can all agree that even if we put this panzer cap aside, all the other '57' marked caps discussed recently here on WAF and the examples on Oakleaf are all reproductions. This is not a rip on any dealers or anyone who ended up with one of these, it's just people keep asking to prove why these are fake and you don't need to look far to see almost all the recent bad caps have the exact same marking.

If you go look through Virtual Grenadier or posts by members who have lots of original M43 caps you will see it's very rare for an original M43 cap to have that marking....

So I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of these caps are appearing with the lone '57' marking. So it may be worth inspecting those ones extra close and seeing that they all share a lot of striking similarities. Not to mention, nobody is concerned that Oakleaf is selling a pair of the same caps?? I think someone at the SOS and MAX has a source of these and is tricking a lot of collectors and dealers with them.

Again, this is just my opinion, the coincidences are just too much to ignore. But take a look at all the caps mentioned, the low prices on them, and make up your own mind if these are original caps or clever fakes. I think the best advice, is that it's always better to play it safe, and hopefully anyone who encounters these caps will think about this thread in the future and make up their own mind on them.

Cheers,
-Steve

[TWS]

@Dave; wise decision that you have removed the single button Heer M43 from your site. As were the opinions can legitimate differ on the Panzer cap, IMHO this should not be the case with the single button one.

Also @Dave: was this the same cap that Ryan had at the Schertz TX show? Just asking because I examined that one in person and want to educate myself.

[90th Light]

This is how collector folklore originates and grows

Someone declares that all M43 caps with tan/ brown bias material are bad and someone tells someone else who tells someone else and on it goes. Before you know it, it is carved into stone like it is law. So where does that leave the original M43 caps made with tan/ brown bias material ? I hate to say it, there are originals made before May 1945 with such bias material. I have an increasing understanding of the basis of the origin of this collector folklore in the USA but equally, I have seen it clearly dispelled in Europe with fact.

And now here on this thread we are declaring M43 caps with a size 57 only as possibly being bad. Before we all know it some collector will tell another collector who will tell another and before long that one will also be cast in stone. Where does this now leave the original M43's made before May 1945 with only a size 57 stamped in them ? Because rare as they are, there are some out there

The reality;

There are original WH M43 caps with only a size marking and no RB number but they are rare. Just the same as there are SS M43's with both a size number and RB number which are also a rare find

If I came across a WH M43 cap with only a size marking and no RB number, I would be on my guard but I would not write it off. Originals do exist. It would not matter if it was a size 52 (I have had a Pickelhaube that size in my collection) or a size 64 (I have seen a LW helmet in another collection with a size 64 liner). And if it was any size in-between size 52 to size 64, I would double check all the manufacturer footprints. Just the same as I do with an RB number in an M43 cap, I go and compare the manufacturer footprints with known originals by that maker.

This is turning out to be a very interesting thread but it can be dangerous to generalise,

Chris

p.s. in all fairness to Oakleaf Militaria, should their M43's now condemned, be discussed in their own right as to what is good and what is bad ? Again it is easy to say all bad but I have sometimes seen wheat among the chaff on that site.

[Zauberflöte]

…..

I think whoever made a lot of the fake caps liked the size '57' stamp, but that's just my opinion. Of course not all lone '57' marked caps are automatically bad, it's just the most common marking appearing in the recent fakes.
...

It is of course not necessarily the Size that matters but the FONT used in what these are marked with.

Since most collectors appear to dislike small sized caps (perhaps because they collect rather for display on mannequin purposes than the collector item in its self); the fakers will have better business producing the average 57 size. I should advice never to determine a cap on the size marking or the lack of it, also RbNr for that matter, but only HOW it is marked.

[Dave Wyatt]

Hi Dave, thanks for your observations.
You might want to try a UV lamp on the faded ink stamps. It sometimes help see them more clearly.

Also, I think it would help if we could have a closer look at the liner, particularly around the seam where it joins the black fabric.
I'm expecting the see discoloration of the liner around that seam, similar to it being bleached.

No problem! I tried the UV light last night, but its still tough to make out anything. I can see what may be "4's", a "3", and a slash, where the rest are too muted to make anything out except the general line of numbers.

Additional photos, hope these help.